The Criterion Collection

[Audiopusher]

Originally Posted by AdmiralNoodles

Arrow and Kino have far superior compression compared to Criterion. Criterion needs to take this chance by upping their game. At least Arrow offer all supplementary features on their 4K UHD disc releases, with again, great compression.

I’m honestly curious as to what metrics you’re using to make such a statement as this? I realize that we all perceive things differently, but I personally have yet to see a Criterion title look anything less than superb. Of course, I watch on my 75” set from about 8 feet away, so any banding or macro blocking that may occur (if it does at all) is minimal. That said, I’ve gone up close to the screen (or viewed from the side) and have seen such artifacts before, at least on non Criterion titles. But, from my actual viewing point, it’s simply not noticeable to me. If you could point out some titles that have bad compression, I’d be interested in checking them out.

As to the HDR / Dolby Vision argument, that’s a huge kettle of fish. As a newer convert to 4k, I’m half impressed. I think a lot of it has to do with the source elements used for the scan, and the desire to remain as true to the source as possible. The Shining was a 4k scan from the negative (which had never been done before) and the results were lovely. Colors looked excellent, not over saturated, and fine details (especially clothing and wall textures inside the Overlook Hotel) were off the charts. If this scan were from an interpositive (or worse, a screening film print) the detail simply would not have been there.

Other 4k titles have looked terrible to me. “The Hunt For a Red October” is a personal disappointment. The colors are muted (it looked positively electric in the theater), and the overall brightness was off (tending toward extra dark - the underwater scenes looked pretty awful and the star at the tip of the Tupelov’s final torpedo was totally lost on the 4k).

As Criterion tends towards film preservation, I suspect they will honor the filmmakers’ wishes (where possible) and deliver 4k material that truly delivers a cinematic experience.

Finally, as an audio professional who cuts sound effects for films and TV shows, I’m on the fence as to Dolby Atmos. If the original intent of the filmmaker is to have overheads in the mix, and it truly aids in the storytelling, by all means go for it. Repurposing for Atmos (especially older films that were mixed in LCR or mono) is a different story. I tend to think of it as the equivalent to colorizing black and white movies. Of course, if the original filmmakers feel the need to open up the sonic palette, so be it. I don’t think it will affect my enjoyment of the film one way or the other. Unless the mix is so far off from what the original was (in terms of relative balance of dialogue, music and fx).

My $.02.

[ztjbluray]

They didn't use blue cases for blu-rays, so I doubt they'll use black cases for UHD.

[bradnoyes]

Originally Posted by Audiopusher

I’m honestly curious as to what metrics you’re using to make such a statement as this?

Just to use one example, the poor encode/compression on Mulholland Drive creates macroblocking that makes the Criterion release downright unwatchable for me. One of the reasons I'm so excited to see that movie in the first wave of releases is to see if Criterion will up their game with the new UHD encodes.

[Audiopusher]

Originally Posted by bradnoyes

Just to use one example, the poor encode/compression on Mulholland Drive creates macroblocking that makes the Criterion release downright unwatchable for me. One of the reasons I'm so excited to see that movie in the first wave of releases is to see if Criterion will up their game with the new UHD encodes.

Thank you for the example. I will watch that one again for sure. Much appreciated!

[gbm82]

Originally Posted by Audiopusher

Thank you for the example. I will watch that one again for sure. Much appreciated!

a civil response?!

[Audiopusher]

Originally Posted by gbm82

a civil response?!

[P.A.C.O.]

Originally Posted by Shampooed

Because only a handful will shell out for a 4k player and more expensive discs, but blu ray is already established and has a fighting chance of surviving.

You may disagree with that, but it's an argument.

Define a handful. I'd argue that PS5s and Xboxes will significantly increase the user base for 4K, most of whom will have/upgrade to a 4K TV.

[Brad1963]

Nice! Citizen Kane just in time for the Barnes and Noble sale. I'm assuming with they say Kane leads the list, it means it will be the first.

[Cremildo]

Originally Posted by P.A.C.O.

I'd argue that PS5s and Xboxes will significantly increase the user base for 4K, most of whom will have/upgrade to a 4K TV.

I plan to grab an Xbox X as a 4K player.

[Shampooed]

Originally Posted by bradnoyes

Don't pretend like you speak for the majority of Criterion customers, please.

Ouch. I'm so hurt.

So I guess you're saying you have stats showing the majority of Criterion customers are avoiding buying blu rays and waiting for 4Ks? If so, I'd love to see it. (Because I can easily show you the stats indicating that sales of blu ray players and discs are way greater than sales of 4k players and discs. I freely admit that's not exactly what I said -- what I said was most Criterion customers are buying blu rays and Criterion appears to be about to leave them behind -- but at least it's in the ballpark. Here's a place to start if you're interested: https://hdguru.com/ultra-hd-blu-ray-...ic-sheltering/)

Anyway, it sure seems likely that the future will be 4k streaming (since that already exists on Netflix etc) and I imagine within a year or two we'll see 4k streaming of at least some movies on the Criterion Channel).

There's every reason to expect that movie-watching will go in the same direction music-listening has; i.e., dumping physical media for streaming. After all, in our hyper-capitalist economy, it's very hard to keep a business going which is not making the maximum profits for investors. And the maximum profits, I would guess, are in streaming (since digital distribution is so much cheaper than physical-disc distribution, basically).

I have no idea what the business relationship is between Criterion (discs) and the Criterion Channel, but if they're the same business, then I would assume they see the channel as the future.

And frankly, that may be good for people like me.

Who are people like me? People who care more about seeing a movie such as "Trouble in Paradise" (which is on Criterion DVD, but not on Criterion blu ray) in the best possible quality we can see without a crazy level of expense or trouble.

If Criterion puts a 2k version of "Trouble in Paradise" on the channel, that's okay with me; I easily see myself subscribing to the channel for the rest of my life -- let's assume I have about 30 years left, as I've been around for a while 🤓 . If the economics of it are that it makes financial sense to put a 2k version of "Trouble in Paradise" on the channel rather than releasing it on disc (I imagine the costs involved in manufacturing, marketing, and distributing a disc are pretty high, and thus cut into Criterion profits quite a bit, versus simply putting it up online), and that ultimately makes it easier for me to access that 2k version online, well, so be it.

Long story short I think I can imagine a world where we're all happy -- the people who are trying to humiliate me for my contrarian opinions, and the few who agree with me 🤓. In that world, 4k Criterion content is easily available online (and I'm assuming broadband speeds have increased to the point where streaming a 20 Gb movie, for instance, is common -- I'm just guessing at the size needed for a decent 4k streaming file, don't flame me please) AND the distribution costs have dropped to the point where Criterion can put its energy into putting 2k versions of "Trouble in Paradise" and "Sunset Boulevard" (and extras) online and still make a bunch of money. So here's hoping we're all happy 2 or 3 years from now. (Except for the people who invested in a 4k player and 50 or so 4k discs before Criterion moved everything online. 😉 They won't be happy, I predict. )


(Just want to say, as for myself, I am watching movies on a 60-inch Samsung plasma with a region-free Sony blu ray player... and honestly, for me, movies on my TV look far better than I ever saw them look in the theater... so part of all of this is the expectations game. I don't really want "Shampoo" to look better than it already looks on Criterion blu ray. It would feel un-natural.)

[drownsoda]

As others have mentioned, I can't imagine Criterion releasing any 4K discs in the standard black cases you see from other companies. I think they'll likely be housed in the same (or similar) Scanovo cases they use for their Blu-rays, probably with a "4K" sticker like they do to distinguish between the DVDs and Blu-rays (which is more obvious when you note the height difference of the cases, but not everyone would necessarily know that).

I also don't necessarily see this as a funeral for Criterion Blu-rays—they've kept most all of their titles in circulation on both DVD and Blu-ray for years now. There are still some people who regularly buy DVDs, though I'd presume that Criterion's base would be less likely to favor DVD to Blu-ray.

In any event, I am looking forward too seeing what this means for Criterion, if anything. Citizen Kane is a big deal for them, but I frankly would be more interested in seeing The Red Shoes in 4K—can you imagine?

[bradnoyes]

Originally Posted by Shampooed

Ouch. I'm so hurt.

blah blah blah

Believe it or not I'm not trying to hurt you. Today is a great day for film lovers and home theater enthusiasts alike, no matter how badly you just want to make it be all about your feelings.

[CelestialAgent]

Originally Posted by ztjbluray

They didn't use blue cases for blu-rays, so I doubt they'll use black cases for UHD.

Benjamin Button

Originally Posted by Vigojean

Mulholland Drive is basically a TV pilot, so I’m not expecting the 4K to look that much better than the Blu-ray. But now I gotta buy a PS5 just to watch 4K movies

Twin Peaks was a great improvement from the BD, even with SDR

Originally Posted by lemonski

It’s particularly galling in cases like La Piscine, where a perfectly good 4K transfer was available in France but Criterion foist a Lego-like Blu-ray onto their customers…..only a month or two later to announce they are going 4K. Either wait and do it right or do it right the first time! Muppets.

Crash and The Elephant Man

Originally Posted by SkyMasterson

Yea, which I'm fine with, but I really do hope they put audio commentaries on the 4K disc as well.

WB made that mistake with The Goonies(and maybe other WB catalog titles?) and it definitely bothers me lol.

Sony with Men in Black

Originally Posted by UnbelievableMontages

It might get a straight 4K release from A24 eventually, but A24 doesn't release a lot of 4Ks. The last 4K they released was Midsommar Director's Cut through their A24 store. It looks like they'll be releasing The Green Knight in 4K, but no plans on Uncut Gems 4K yet. Criterion had the opportunity to release it in 4K, but they're going to release it on a Blu-ray disc.

The 4K preorder is a Canadian UPC, indicating Elevation/Universal will be releasing it, not A24.

[MifuneFan]

For anyone wondering, the title yolo was hinting at was Mulholland Drive.

Originally Posted by yoloswegmaster420

This was the title that I was hinting at. Thank god I can finally say something!

[Rayjg]

I hope Citizen Kane comes with a snow globe

[Shampooed]

Originally Posted by bradnoyes

Believe it or not I'm not trying to hurt you. Today is a great day for film lovers and home theater enthusiasts alike, no matter how badly you just want to make it be all about your feelings.

Oh now I'm even more hurt.

But still waiting on your stats showing customers putting off blu ray purchases while waiting for 4ks.

You're just such a fierce adversary! You don't even need to use facts or arguments! So impressive!

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by Cremildo

[Show spoiler]

I plan to grab an Xbox X as a 4K player.

I wouldn't choose either current-gen gaming console for a UHDBD player; no Dolby Vision from discs on either one, demonstrably worse PQ than most decent standalones. This ain't the early days of BD when the PS3 was THE best BD player on the market bar none, so much so that Criterion put a PS3 in its viewing room as its first BD player.

[Warm Gun]

The main reason I wouldn't use a console as a player is that, in my experience, they're all way too loud. Fans running at full or half capacity even though no 3D graphics processing is going on. I remember reading some review when the PS5 came out, stating that it uses like six times as much power as a normal 4K player during UHD playback.

[SlickDamian]

Originally Posted by randian

I hate digipaks, so I would be happy with a plastic case. Are there any black cases as nice as the current clear Blu-ray case they’re using?

I don't like the digipaks either.

Remember the digipaks for the handful of Blu-ray/DVD combo packs that they made? I have a bunch on my shelf, and they are not holding up that great over time. They were pretty clumsy, and also HUGE. I hope that they don't do anything like that, and use plastic similar to what they have now. It would be cool if it was a Criterion plastic case, but in black or something.

[Egbert Souse]

Originally Posted by AdmiralNoodles

On 4K from other companies who already released a title on 4K. Which Criterion doesn't need to since they'd be wasting their time.
Criterion also needs to lower their MSRP for 4K+BD sets along with BD and DVD, drastically, if they're to remain relevant.

$50-60 MSRP is pretty reasonable for UHD-Blu combos. I'm usually paying around $40-45 for Arrow's "ultimate" UHD limited editions like the Argentos, which don't even include a Blu-ray disc most of the time.

Criterion putting supplements only on the Blu-ray discs is a wise move, as that'll keep the dual format whiners away. While I think it was a little silly for DVD + Blu-ray, it makes way more sense with 4K + 1080p.