The Criterion Collection

[Scholer]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

I'm obviously posting this in the wrong place as there are thousands of users here who swear by 4K, but it has yet to truly make me say that I need to buy all my films in 4K. It's just not that much of a difference.

One doesn’t have to buy all films in 4K, I certainly don’t. Anything that’s a basic 2K upscale I’m not buying (though lately some 2K upscales are showing noticeable improvements in quality as not all 2K upscales are created equal).

There are certain films for which personally a 4K upgrade is a hard sell, case in point being A Hard Day’s Night which derived from the master as the UHD already looks absolutely smashing on Blu-ray, and with Richard Lester’s frantic moving camera aesthetic and the film’s flat on the fly lighting, I’m not convinced the 4K HDR bump would do it any big favours. Documentaries and non-fiction films in general, regardless of capture format, wouldn’t be the kind of films that would benefit most from a 4K HDR upgrade as a rule (though there will be very notable exceptions to this rule, case in point being concert films like The Last Waltz, which often have truly exquisite cinematography).

But where 4K HDR does can bring out a massive uptick in one’s viewing experience, Blade Runner being a great example, it’s a total no brainer to upgrade. There are notable cases, like Stand by Me, where to me the uptick from BD to UHD exceeded the uptick from DVD to BD! All three actually used the same master, and while BD was a huge upgrade, Blu-ray's limited colour space and 1080p were simply not enough to bring out what was in the 4K scan, it essentially felt like a resolution bump of the already excellently mastered DVD. With the 4K UHD upgrade though, the film looked outright revelatory with perfectly resolved fine grain and colour fidelity off the charts!

[Scholer]

Originally Posted by mmarczi

Far more people watch DVDs than UHDs.

True, but then didn’t Criterion stop DVD issues for some of their recent 4K upgrades and even some new Blu-ray titles? So they are probably losing out on sales there too.

I appreciate that the issue may be complex, and I don’t know claim to understand how the key decision makers at Criterion come to their final decisions behind closed doors. I just personally feel that the decision to relegate films to BD only releases where excellent 4K masters are at their disposal isn’t the soundest decision, business motivated or otherwise.

I felt exactly the same when La Strada had a stand-alone blu-ray upgrade instead of a UHD combo release when a 4K HDR master (probably already in UHD deliverable form!) completed by Studio Canal was staring right at them.

[gbm82]

you're even arguing against yourself now... time to give it up

[mmarczi]

Originally Posted by Scholer

True, but then didn’t Criterion stop DVD issues for some of their recent 4K upgrades and even some new Blu-ray titles? So they are probably losing out on sales there too.

Yes, they have started to issue some releases without DVDs. I can only assume they are taking it on a case-by-case basis and gauging the market for each format for each release. I think it's reasonable to assume that a DVD of Adoption would move more copies (at least relative to its Blu-Ray counterpart) than love jones would.

Originally Posted by Scholer

I just personally feel that the decision to relegate films to BD only releases where excellent 4K masters are at their disposal isn’t the soundest decision, business motivated or otherwise.

If they felt it was a good business decision to put out Adoption on UHD, they would have. But then they would have to decide whether or not to issue a standalone Blu-Ray as well. Then there's the timing to consider. They're still figuring out how their UHDs will move. Le cercle rouge will be their first foreign-language film on UHD. I'm betting they want to see how that does before they try another one that isn't a flagship arthouse staple.

Originally Posted by Scholer

I felt exactly the same when La Strada had a stand-alone blu-ray upgrade instead of a UHD combo release when a 4K HDR master (probably already in UHD deliverable form!) completed by Studio Canal was staring right at them.

The case for La Strada is infinitely better than the case for Adoption, and it wouldn't surprise me if they do put it out on 4K in a year or five. The only 'problem' is they were not doing UHDs yet when that came out. If their UHDs sell well, we'll have a much better chance of seeing stuff like that of hitting the format.

[Scholer]

Originally Posted by mmarczi

The case for La Strada is infinitely better than the case for Adoption, and it wouldn't surprise me if they do put it out on 4K in a year or five. The only 'problem' is they were not doing UHDs yet when that came out.

It was in the November line up, so they were technically “doing UHDs” already. I do agree that the case for La Strada is a lot stronger since it is a much more well known film, but Menace II Society wasn’t exactly a slam dunk super seller choice to be put in the first line up either. And I deeply appreciate that they didn’t relegate that film to BD only, since with a UHD release some people who’d probably never heard of the film otherwise might want to consider it. This could have been likely been the case for love jones and Adoption too, but now they are just two new CC titles on blu-ray which invariably a good portion of those unfamiliar with the films will avoid.

Again, I’m not really saying that anything with a 4K master should absolutely get a UHD release. But where a UHD release would definitely showcase a film more strongly with a noticeable uptick in AV compared to blu-ray, and where a quality UHD release could very well be the motivator for some people to consider a new film, I think a 4K UHD release should be there. For something like The Piano for instance, I’m sure many unfamiliar with the film will check out the release simply because it’s a film on UHD which will very likely be reported to have a strong 4K HDR presentation.

Originally Posted by gbm82

you're even arguing against yourself now... time to give it up

Not every “discussion” has to be an argument to be won, so that’s totally your problem, not mine.

[Matt89]

So I finally picked up the UHD of Menace II Society and finally opened my copy of Mulholland Drive to watch both of them last night. And yup, all the discs are scratched to absolute shit. Menace II Society almost looks like someone scraped it against the ground it’s so bad. These are getting exchanged today. Christ, what the hell is going on with quality control? It’s affecting almost every studio. The amount of scratched discs, shoddy packaging and replacement programs is getting ridiculous. Honestly this hobby is becoming exhausting. I’m so tired of constantly having to exchange everything.

~Matt

[jkoffman]

Originally Posted by Scholer

True, but then didn’t Criterion stop DVD issues for some of their recent 4K upgrades and even some new Blu-ray titles? So they are probably losing out on sales there too.

I appreciate that the issue may be complex, and I don’t know claim to understand how the key decision makers at Criterion come to their final decisions behind closed doors. I just personally feel that the decision to relegate films to BD only releases where excellent 4K masters are at their disposal isn’t the soundest decision, business motivated or otherwise.

Why let your personal tastes and beliefs get in the way of Criterion making their own sound business decisions based on 37 years of selling home video? I provided with you data about sales and you responded with snark and more personal opinions. You're already talking to a crowd that has a deep love for movies and great presentations, so you don't have to convince anyone that you personally love 4K. But when you wade into what is a good business decision, you should have something more to back it up than "Because I prefer 4K".

[ShellOilJunior]

Originally Posted by lostinlondon79

Does this apply to orders placed via Amazon or were the Amazon orders sent out with the corrected disc replaced already?

I purchased the Kane UHD/Blu combo from Barnes and Noble. It looks like Amazon hasn't received the 2nd printing yet (Blu-ray shows out of stock).

[jkoffman]

Originally Posted by lostinlondon79

Does this apply to orders placed via Amazon or were the Amazon orders sent out with the corrected disc replaced already?

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

I purchase the Kane UHD/Blu combo from Barnes and Noble. It looks like Amazon hasn't received the 2nd printing yet (Blu-ray shows out of stock).

Did I miss somewhere that retailers like Amazon or B&N said they'll be sending out replacement discs? I thought only Criterion was handling replacement discs directly through them.

[ShellOilJunior]

Originally Posted by jkoffman

Did I miss somewhere that retailers like Amazon or B&N said they'll be sending out replacement discs? I thought only Criterion was handling replacement discs directly through them.

Criterion is handling the replacements. I think the Amazon question was if they had received the 2nd printing yet.

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by Mnementh

The main difference isn't the resolution. It's the color gamut. Any old 4K TV won't necessarily have a decent wide color gamut. The difference is usually dramatic if you're using Dolby Vision or HDR10+.

My being is that I have a 4K TV, but not felt the need to upgrade to a 4K player because of what I have seen at my friends place despite already having some of the equipment. He's always talking about HDR so I'm assuming he has that.

[Scholer]

Originally Posted by jkoffman

But when you wade into what is a good business decision,

But I don't think that's the case here.

Originally Posted by jkoffman

you should have something more to back it up than "Because I prefer 4K".

From my previous post:

Originally Posted by Scholer

I do agree that the case for La Strada is a lot stronger since it is a much more well known film, but Menace II Society wasn’t exactly a slam dunk super seller choice to be put in the first line up either. And I deeply appreciate that they didn’t relegate that film to BD only, since with a UHD release some people who’d probably never heard of the film otherwise might want to consider it. This could have been likely been the case for love jones and Adoption too, but now they are just two new CC titles on blu-ray which invariably a good portion of those unfamiliar with the films will avoid.

Again, I’m not really saying that anything with a 4K master should absolutely get a UHD release. But where a UHD release would definitely showcase a film more strongly with a noticeable uptick in AV compared to blu-ray, and where a quality UHD release could very well be the motivator for some people to consider a new film, I think a 4K UHD release should be there. For something like The Piano for instance, I’m sure many unfamiliar with the film will check out the release simply because it’s a film on UHD which will very likely be reported to have a strong 4K HDR presentation.

[Scholer]

Originally Posted by jkoffman

I provided with you data about sales and you responded with snark...

Well, I apologise if you felt that way. I was genuinely interested to know which particular title/titles the data was for on my part, hence my question.

[Mnementh]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

He's always talking about HDR so I'm assuming he has that.

Plain HDR isn't the same as Dolby Vision or HDR10+. For the latter two, you need hardware and media that specifically support them. Merely having 4K or HDR doesn't mean much- there's a dramatic difference between an OLED display and a $300 Black Friday 4K TV.

[Ferretferret]

I have the LG CX OLED tv, and it's absolutely a perspective shift. Never really thought film transfer made a difference until I got it; figured everyone was just arguing about a stray pixel here and there. It's mesmerizing how the end screen alters the disc presentation.

[Mike_C]

Originally Posted by Matt89

So I finally picked up the UHD of Menace II Society and finally opened my copy of Mulholland Drive to watch both of them last night. And yup, all the discs are scratched to absolute shit. Menace II Society almost looks like someone scraped it against the ground it’s so bad. These are getting exchanged today. Christ, what the hell is going on with quality control? It’s affecting almost every studio. The amount of scratched discs, shoddy packaging and replacement programs is getting ridiculous. Honestly this hobby is becoming exhausting. I’m so tired of constantly having to exchange everything.

~Matt

Well, if it makes you feel any better...the seeming lack of quality control with blu ray discs ABSOLUTELY PALES in comparison to the lack of quality control with vinyl these days. So...

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by Mnementh

Plain HDR isn't the same as Dolby Vision or HDR10+. For the latter two, you need hardware and media that specifically support them. Merely having 4K or HDR doesn't mean much- there's a dramatic difference between an OLED display and a $300 Black Friday 4K TV.

So basically you need to shell out some extra dough for the most up to date equipment in order to get 4K UHD at its full potential. Makes sense. Might have to head to Best Buy and ask them if I can borrow one for an hour or two to compare Endgame on the two TVs on Blu-ray and UHD.

[mmarczi]

Originally Posted by Scholer

It was in the November line up, so they were technically “doing UHDs” already. I do agree that the case for La Strada is a lot stronger since it is a much more well known film, but Menace II Society wasn’t exactly a slam dunk super seller choice to be put in the first line up either. And I deeply appreciate that they didn’t relegate that film to BD only, since with a UHD release some people who’d probably never heard of the film otherwise might want to consider it. This could have been likely been the case for love jones and Adoption too, but now they are just two new CC titles on blu-ray which invariably a good portion of those unfamiliar with the films will avoid.

Again, I’m not really saying that anything with a 4K master should absolutely get a UHD release. But where a UHD release would definitely showcase a film more strongly with a noticeable uptick in AV compared to blu-ray, and where a quality UHD release could very well be the motivator for some people to consider a new film, I think a 4K UHD release should be there. For something like The Piano for instance, I’m sure many unfamiliar with the film will check out the release simply because it’s a film on UHD which will very likely be reported to have a strong 4K HDR presentation.

First and foremost, I'm certain that you're overestimating the size of the videophile community if you really think that Adoption not being on UHD is going to seriously hurt sales. The vast majority of people who watch movies do not prioritize watching it in the best possible quality, but are more interested in simply being able to watch it...which is why most people stream. In a vacuum, in which economic factors don't exist, yes, most films should be on UHD, but I don't think Adoption is even a film that would substantially benefit from it in the first place. Honestly, anybody not buying this film because it's not on UHD is either not very interested in the film itself in the first place or is fooling themselves thinking it will ever be upgraded. And I'm sure the population of potential customers who would only be interested because it's a UHD would be very small and far from justifying the expense of producing the extra discs. They would either have to do both UHD/Blu-Ray combos or that AND a separate Blu-Ray line, but neither is a good option. Making the only available version (combo) $25 minimum on sale will reduce the number of copies they can move, and it's really too small a title to support two different Blu-Ray versions. That's why it's coming out on DVD...that should tell you that Criterion doesn't see this as a film that is going to be marketable to videophiles.

[Vigojean]

Originally Posted by Matt89

So I finally picked up the UHD of Menace II Society and finally opened my copy of Mulholland Drive to watch both of them last night. And yup, all the discs are scratched to absolute shit. Menace II Society almost looks like someone scraped it against the ground it’s so bad. These are getting exchanged today. Christ, what the hell is going on with quality control? It’s affecting almost every studio. The amount of scratched discs, shoddy packaging and replacement programs is getting ridiculous. Honestly this hobby is becoming exhausting. I’m so tired of constantly having to exchange everything.

~Matt

When people don't get paid enough, they do shoddy work. Now have a seat and I'll tell you why we need to get rid of capitalism and embrace Communism...

[Scholer]

Originally Posted by mmarczi

First and foremost, I'm certain that you're overestimating the size of the videophile community if you really think that Adoption not being on UHD is going to seriously hurt sales. The vast majority of people who watch movies do not prioritize watching it in the best possible quality, but are more interested in simply being able to watch it...which is why most people stream. In a vacuum, in which economic factors don't exist, yes, most films should be on UHD, but I don't think Adoption is even a film that would substantially benefit from it in the first place. Honestly, anybody not buying this film because it's not on UHD is either not very interested in the film itself in the first place or is fooling themselves thinking it will ever be upgraded. And I'm sure the population of potential customers who would only be interested because it's a UHD would be very small and far from justifying the expense of producing the extra discs. They would either have to do both UHD/Blu-Ray combos or that AND a separate Blu-Ray line, but neither is a good option. Making the only available version (combo) $25 minimum on sale will reduce the number of copies they can move, and it's really too small a title to support two different Blu-Ray versions. That's why it's coming out on DVD...that should tell you that Criterion doesn't see this as a film that is going to be marketable to videophiles.

What you are saying reminds me very much of the discussions that occurred around the time of the releases of Close-Up and Everlasting Moments over a decade ago. For their June 2010 line up, Criterion decided to relegate three films to DVD only: the aforementioned and Night Train to Munich. The former two were eventually also added to the Blu-ray line up as well, while for reasons I’ll never understand a Blu-ray of Night to Train to Munich was held back until 2016.

From my limited recall of the time, I do understand that the backlash to that was clearly much more pronounced than anything we have against films not getting UHD versions now, but even then many argued that the marketplace was too small for foreign lesser known films like Close-Up and Everlasting Moments for Criterion to consider releasing them on Blu-ray.

Since then, I’m not sure if Everlasting Moments ever became a big seller, but Close-Up’s gradual critical re-evaluation has almost certainly made the blu-ray of it a staple in many a cinephile’s collection. I don’t have exact sales figures, but over time I’m certain it became a big seller for them, something which would almost certainly never be the case if it was relegated to DVD only.