The Criterion Collection

[jkoffman]

Kind of funny that after all this talk of collection comparisons the Kino thread is now 4 pages of mostly that.

[Cremildo]

Originally Posted by TolerancEJ

We should have weekend KL announcements soon to bring us back into the normal flow of discussion.

We already had - the Truffaut films.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by Cremildo

Why are some people choosing to ignore Mr. Furmanek's evidence that Summertime was made with widescreen in mind? Criterion had the choice to look such information up.

I would like to see both if there’s a debate, but frankly, 1:33 is the least destructive option if they’re going to present a film in one AR that’s not hard matted, or where they can’t establish firm clarity as to the AR. And honestly, I will assume Criterion has better resources at its disposal to help guide them than a few press clippings. None of what that link provided says that 1:37 is an invalid AR, just that widescreen is EQUALLY valid.

Again, which is why I think having a multiple AR presentation is the best course. But not imposing a matte - refusing to destroy the top and bottom information when there’s a question - is the second-best.

[Benoit Blanc]

Originally Posted by jkoffman

Kind of funny that after all this talk of collection comparisons the Kino thread is now 4 pages of mostly that.

Oops, I believe I started that.

[CRASHLANDING]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

I would like to see both if there’s a debate, but frankly, 1:33 is the least destructive option if they’re going to present a film in one AR that’s not hard matted, or where they can’t establish firm clarity as to the AR. And honestly, I will assume Criterion has better resources at its disposal to help guide them than a few press clippings. None of what that link provided says that 1:37 is an invalid AR, just that widescreen is EQUALLY valid.

Again, which is why I think having a multiple AR presentation is the best course. But not imposing a matte - refusing to destroy the top and bottom information when there’s a question - is the second-best.

Well said - this is exactly the point I was trying to make. Though I still wish they'd provided both, especially since there is obviously a large audience that feels strongly about having a widescreen option.

[Cremildo]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

And honestly, I will assume Criterion has better resources at its disposal to help guide them than a few press clippings.

If they had, they could have alluded to it in response to a member's e-mail, which was posted here. I'll take press clippings over an assumption.

Originally Posted by DimitriL

None of what that link provided says that 1:37 is an invalid AR, just that widescreen is EQUALLY valid.

Um, no.

[tatterdemalion]

Well, I'm buying Summertime because I support physical media and I don't want to see it die. I come from the days of 8mm and super 8mm cameras, VHS/Betamax, laserdisc and DVD and whether this movie is presented matted or not it'll look (very censored word here) better than what I saw on TV in the 1970's and those other media. It's only in today's anal attitude world of perfection that there would be a righteous anger over a materialistic plastic item presentation.

I worked in retail and if someone told me "This isn't the way I want it so I won't buy it and never shop here again" I'd tell them 'So long, and have a nice day.' (When I was working I said that a lot of times very sweetly with a giant smile on my face! Man I pissed off some customers.)

[HenryHill]

Originally Posted by Jaymole

I decided to take my collection off from view because I got too many asinine and snarky comments from posters. I kept it in view before because I thought it may help people who browsed it in making them aware of certain films... it was definitely not to show off.

There might be a few maladjusted people who do that, but most of us just enjoy the sense of community from being with other film fans. Plus I learn a lot about film history from you guys. I catalog my films here and on DVDProfiler mostly to keep my collection organized.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by tatterdemalion

Well, I'm buying Summertime because I support physical media and I don't want to see it die. I come from the days of 8mm and super 8mm cameras, VHS/Betamax, laserdisc and DVD and whether this movie is presented matted or not it'll look (very censored word here) better than what I saw on TV in the 1970's and those other media. It's only in today's anal attitude world of perfection that there would be a righteous anger over a materialistic plastic item presentation.

I worked in retail and if someone told me "This isn't the way I want it so I won't buy it and never shop here again" I'd tell them 'So long, and have a nice day.' (When I was working I said that a lot of times very sweetly with a giant smile on my face! Man I pissed off some customers.)

Classy.

Is it righteous anger... or is it simply people pointing out that this it the way the film should be presented?

Criterion in particular are a company that sets themselves up as the connoisseur's label, the one that caters to the true cinephile. So for them to willfully misrepresent the aspect ratio of this classic film undermines that claim particularly when they have no actual evidence to back it up. It's also absurd that part of their reasoning is that it's the way that Janus projects the film when they are basically sister companies.

Of course people are free not to purchase this release if it's not to their satisfaction but it's not unreasonable on a forum such as this to actually discuss it if for no other reason than to let people be aware of the issue.

[tatterdemalion]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

Classy.

Is it righteous anger... or is it simply people pointing out that this it the way the film should be presented?

Criterion in particular are a company that sets themselves up as the connoisseur's label, the one that caters to the true cinephile. So for them to willfully misrepresent the aspect ratio of this classic film undermines that claim particularly when they have no actual evidence to back it up. It's also absurd that part of their reasoning is that it's the way that Janus projects the film when they are basically sister companies.

Of course people are free not to purchase this release if it's not to their satisfaction but it's not unreasonable on a forum such as this to actually discuss it if for no other reason than to let people be aware of the issue.

It's definitely a first-world country issue. I guess I'm just meaning we have it very good today as Cinephiles when an aspect ratio issue of a thankfully non-hard matted film is what's being complained about. Not the fourth generation, color faded or greyed out B&W, extremely scratched, cut and edited and extremely pan & scanned way I had to watch films growing up. I didn't see 2001:A Space Odyssey in widescreen until the video release in the early 90's. I always thought it was a movie filled with panning. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly was even funnier because the extreme close-ups was usually of one-eye.

That's why I bought other complained about BD's like the Bugs Bunny 80th Anniversary with the psycho Funko Pop; at least that one wasn't about restorations; and the Laurel & Hardy one. Even though it has overuse of DNR on a couple of discs it still looks way better than what I used to watch on PBS in the 70s. My 2022 self says 'damn DNR' but my 1976 self rejoices because my '76 self never had it so good!

I'm just glad to be able to own them.

And yes, thank you, I am a classy person. I'm Hawai'i born bruddah! We're not grumps, we're not here to serve you and we go with 'da flow!

[NeoNical]

Happy 75th Anniversary to One of the Greatest British Dramas:

Black Narcissus
A Film by Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger



Premiered on this day in London.

On a side note, thought that there already was a 4K UHD release of this. Hopefully there is one in the makings!

[MifuneFan]

One of Criterion's best covers too in my opinion.

[regeyer]

Originally Posted by NeoNical

Happy 75th Anniversary to One of the Greatest British Dramas:

Black Narcissus
A Film by Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger

Premiered on this day in London.

On a side note, thought that there already was a 4K UHD release of this. Hopefully there is one in the makings!

Thanks for the reminder. You just gave me the deciding factor in choosing what to watch tonight.

[ukulelemonster]

Originally Posted by NeoNical

Happy 75th Anniversary to One of the Greatest British Dramas:

Black Narcissus
A Film by Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger

Premiered on this day in London.

On a side note, thought that there already was a 4K UHD release of this. Hopefully there is one in the makings!

This movie is high on my list of Criterions to purchase, but I've been holding off on the chance it'll be upgraded. And I really want it in 4K.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by tatterdemalion

It's definitely a first-world country issue. I guess I'm just meaning we have it very good today as Cinephiles when an aspect ratio issue of a thankfully non-hard matted film is what's being complained about. Not the fourth generation, color faded or greyed out B&W, extremely scratched, cut and edited and extremely pan & scanned way I had to watch films growing up. I didn't see 2001:A Space Odyssey in widescreen until the video release in the early 90's. I always thought it was a movie filled with panning. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly was even funnier because the extreme close-ups was usually of one-eye.

Because it's wrong, and not what the artist intended. It should 100% be complained about, and the company doesn't get a "pass" just for releasing it on a dying physical media format.

It's cool (I guess) if you want to support errors, but I'm pretty sure if you made art that was then reproduced incorrectly, you wouldn't just shrug and say "whatever." You're fine with "owning" a movie even if its wrong. Thankfully, most of us feel the opposite, and would rather have it presented correctly.

And you DID finally see those mentioned films in proper aspect ratio, unlike this film, which has always—and continues to be—maligned.

[tama]

Originally Posted by Cremildo

If they had, they could have alluded to it in response to a member's e-mail, which was posted here. I'll take press clippings over an assumption.

And I'll take Robert Harris experienced thoughts on the matter. And based on what he's seeing with a full frame photo that Criterion has sent the HTF owner and a few other shots Robert has looked into he stated the 1.85:1 doesn't work and is causing problems. Which is probably why Criterion is going they way they are with this release.

Just also want to add he feels 1.66 is likely the better way and not 1.37.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by tatterdemalion

It's definitely a first-world country issue. I guess I'm just meaning we have it very good today as Cinephiles when an aspect ratio issue of a thankfully non-hard matted film is what's being complained about. Not the fourth generation, color faded or greyed out B&W, extremely scratched, cut and edited and extremely pan & scanned way I had to watch films growing up. I didn't see 2001:A Space Odyssey in widescreen until the video release in the early 90's. I always thought it was a movie filled with panning. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly was even funnier because the extreme close-ups was usually of one-eye.

That's why I bought other complained about BD's like the Bugs Bunny 80th Anniversary with the psycho Funko Pop; at least that one wasn't about restorations; and the Laurel & Hardy one. Even though it has overuse of DNR on a couple of discs it still looks way better than what I used to watch on PBS in the 70s. My 2022 self says 'damn DNR' but my 1976 self rejoices because my '76 self never had it so good!

I'm just glad to be able to own them.

And yes, thank you, I am a classy person. I'm Hawai'i born bruddah! We're not grumps, we're not here to serve you and we go with 'da flow!

Yeah, yeah, I get it. There are a lot of people here who grew up watching movies in compromised versions (black & white TV airings, fuzzy VHS tapes, scratched up and faded prints, etc.) but you can still be appreciative of the access we have to high quality versions of movies nowadays AND also point out problems, particularly when it's on a website dedicated to movies on home media.

[beamish13]

Originally Posted by NeoNical

Happy 75th Anniversary to One of the Greatest British Dramas:

Black Narcissus
A Film by Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger



Premiered on this day in London.

On a side note, thought that there already was a 4K UHD release of this. Hopefully there is one in the makings!

Seeing this in nitrate was one of the best 🎥 going experiences of my life

[tatterdemalion]

Originally Posted by tama

And I'll take Robert Harris experienced thoughts on the matter. And based on what he's seeing with a full frame photo that Criterion has sent the HTF owner and a few other shots Robert has looked into he stated the 1.85:1 doesn't work and is causing problems. Which is probably why Criterion is going they way they are with this release.

Just also want to add he feels 1.66 is likely the better way and not 1.37.

I was there reading that too. The screen shots they did only seemed to work at 1.37 or 1.66. Didn't they mention that United Artists at that time was pushing 1.66 as it's preferred WS ratio? So the 1.37 image was softly matted on the top of the negative?

Anyway, I prefer this in the summertime:



Bates Motel and RCRochester, I do agree that Criterion should at least give an option on ratios. That way there wouldn't be dissatisfaction about it for some. We the viewer can decide which one works better for our own preference. A little more of Venice or tighter framing.

Glad for once to get into a conversation. I don't post often, just usually read through the thread. And when I did I drew Bates...I'm official now!

Btw, when I worked I used to say 'Thank you, have a nice day' not 'so long..' with angry customers. I was a manager a few times and 99% of the time they came back because I said that. Posting at 12:30am will do that to you.

[gudemameshiba]

Originally Posted by Snicket

I’m thinking of ending things

No! Regardless of whether we get disc releases of Netflix films, life is still worth living!

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

I do hope Criterion starts focusing a bit more on some upgrades. I'm still surprised that Le Deuxième Souffle doesn't have a Blu-ray yet. We get releases of Army of Shadows and Le Cercle Rouge before we got his.

Also really need Samurai Rebellion, Fires On the Plains, and Under the Volcano at some point.

Originally Posted by hoytereden

After seeing Great Expectations on TCM last night it reminded me that the two Lean/Dickens titles are long overdue.

Originally Posted by belcherman

As is Hobson’s Choice which, while not Dickens, has a definite Dickensian feel to it.

Summertime was the oldest (released in August 1998) in-print Criterion DVD awaiting an upgrade. Was this an existing 4K restoration that Criterion licensed, or did they handle this one in-house start-to-finish? If the latter, that's encouraging, since mostly what we've seen is that if someone else completes a restoration Criterion will license it, but otherwise they haven't really upgraded much in the past two years…which in a sense is good because there's only so much mileage you can get out of a dated master presented on Blu-ray. Although overall the oldest master on a Criterion Blu-ray is probably Rushmore, lol.

Great Expectations and Oliver Twist are now the oldest, and they will definitely need new masters, lol.

So will Samurai Rebellion, which came out on DVD nearly seven years after the Lean/Dickens pair, but still nearly 18 years ago. (Whatever they used for the Blu-ray of An Angel at My Table might be as old as that, but number one, it shows, and number two, the movie itself is barely thirty years old.)

For that matter, did I read somewhere on here that Toho doesn't let licensees in other territories release Blu-rays until Toho has released one in Japan?

The master of Le deuxième souffle has a bunch of minor print damage that was totally ordinary in 2008 but for which restorative tools have rather advanced in the last fifteen years. On the one hand, I think that's the route they went with Le samouraï, but on the other hand, that was theoretically in response to an apparently dreadful Pathe restoration that I imagine they otherwise would have licensed, and for Le deuxième souffle probably not as cost-effective as waiting and hoping for a new restoration.

Hobson's Choice was scanned in 2K. That seems the most likely candidate for a Blu-ray from the same master. Probably when the stock from the DVD's print run is low.

Do we think Walker will stay in print on DVD? It's "Currently Unavailable" on the Criterion site, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. That said, Yojimbo is simply no longer available on DVD, and I imagine others have or will quietly go out of print on DVD. If that's the way things start to go, I would guess that Under the Volcano will also get a Blu-ray release sourced from the existing master. It wasn't a 2K scan but it doesn't look bad and it's a Janus film.

Originally Posted by DimitriL

I would like to see both if there’s a debate, but frankly, 1:33 is the least destructive option if they’re going to present a film in one AR that’s not hard matted, or where they can’t establish firm clarity as to the AR. And honestly, I will assume Criterion has better resources at its disposal to help guide them than a few press clippings. None of what that link provided says that 1:37 is an invalid AR, just that widescreen is EQUALLY valid.

Again, which is why I think having a multiple AR presentation is the best course. But not imposing a matte - refusing to destroy the top and bottom information when there’s a question - is the second-best.

Originally Posted by CRASHLANDING

Well said - this is exactly the point I was trying to make. Though I still wish they'd provided both, especially since there is obviously a large audience that feels strongly about having a widescreen option.

I agree. I see you each own the Criterion Blu-ray of The Breakfast Club. Since that was shot with spherical lenses and matted to 1.85:1, I'll PM you both my address and you can mail them to me, since it destroys the top and bottom information, unless you can get a hold of Thomas Del Ruth to confirm that they weren't protecting for airings on television (where it was seen by more people than in any theater).