The Criterion Collection

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by CoopFilm

What's wrong with it? I keep reading such polarizing opinions, and am curious about that....I've never seen it and the brief summary in the review doesn't sound particularly terrible or special to me.

Nothing is really wrong with it, it's a movie like any other movie, some people like it and others don't. But like everything else on the Internet some people just take the comments of others way overboard, c'est la vie!

[mrjohnnyb]

Originally Posted by iScottie

The cashier split the Criterions I was buying into three separate orders so that I could apply both the $8 / $40 and the $5 / $50 coupons on all three orders. Apparently you can't stack them, so YMMV.

I have not heard about any other coupons coming out this week, but I do know that some people received mystery coupons in their e-mails. Also, the buzz codes don't work anymore apparently either, so you can't get $5 / $15 off or whatever it was.

First of all, thank you very much for responding to my question.

I have been closely examining the "$8 off $40" coupon and noticed that the coupon can only be applied to a disc that sells for at least $40 currently. Is this true, or has anyone been able to use this on a total order that exceeds $40?

Thank you.

[Snicket]

This is why I normally stick to Criterion Cast for reviews of the films themselves.

[unkie fester]

Ok so im new to Criterion collection. Have some questions i picked up the Stanley Kubrick collection last week and i am looking to get paths of glory and the killing, do CC movies ever go OOP and if so how long does that take? Im also looking to get a night to rember and boy with the red ballon all on BD

[Hawkguy]

Originally Posted by mrjohnnyb

I have been closely examining the "$8 off $40" coupon and noticed that the coupon can only be applied to a disc that sells for at least $40 currently. Is this true, or has anyone been able to use this on a total order that exceeds $40?

It counts for discs that are $40 without the promotional discount added (the 'selling' price, so most Criterion titles should count----unless if someone complains that 39.99 does not equal 40). If the retail is actually over 40, though (one of the 49.99 titles or perhaps a boxed set), then I don't see why they'd refuse it when it clearly points out what the 'selling' price is.

Originally Posted by unkie fester

Ok so im new to Criterion collection. Have some questions i picked up the Stanley Kubrick collection last week and i am looking to get paths of glory and the killing, do CC movies ever go OOP and if so how long does that take?

They sometimes go OOP, but when they do the releases will still be easily available for several months afterwards.

[Beta Man]

The prices of their films are very static, so if you're going to get the two aforementioned films, doing so during this sale, or the one in Dec. are your best bet, otherwise you'll be looking at $25 from Amazon until possibly another sale in July.

[oildude]

I find it funny that the review of Heaven’s Gate on blu-ray.com is generating controversy just like the film. I think the polarizing issue is Pro-b’s line in his review that anyone not liking the film must be an idiot. While I have high regard for Pro-b’s reviews, I found this comment beneath the usual astute level of his analysis. It comes across as having a condescending tone of superiority, which I am quite sure was not intended and, regardless, is one reviewer’s opinion that should not be taken personally on an internet forum.

I first saw Heaven’s Gate about eight years ago on a DVD rental. I thought it was overall not a good film, but not so horrendously bad to deserve its reputation. I rented it mainly for the visuals, since much of the film was shot on location in and around Glacier National Park, a place where I once worked as a bartender in one of the great lodges for a summer and spent a magical five months hiking the trails and peaks. Whatever Cimino’s intentions, I remember thinking Heaven’s Gate was frequently a mess. It seemed unfocused, in some places agonizingly dull and overly long, poorly scripted, yet there was enough good stuff in it to hold my attention to the end. If I recall correctly from articles I read, the film went crazy over budget due to Cimino’s megalomania and insistence on numerous takes and re-shoots, script changes, etc.

In my limited understanding of the filmmaking process, a director is more than just a visionary, he/she is also a project manager. A director has to be conscious of the budget given, act responsibly toward the stakeholders who have given him or her the money to bring the project to completion, communicate and accept compromises or limitations to artistic vision where necessary, and deliver the goods. It is a damn tough job that goes beyond directing a cast and crew. Whether Heaven's Gate has true artistic merit or values that went unappreciated in its time, Cimino didn’t get it done. Worse, his film bombed - and bombed so fast and hard it brought down a studio and changed the way studios managed directorial freedom from that point forward.

I never had the desire to see it again. Frankly, if it wasn’t being released by Criterion, I would likely not be adding it to my collection. But I took advantage of amazon’s price and some credits to pre-order Heaven’s Gate and see if the intervening years have softened my views toward it. Ten years ago I didn’t care for subtitled foreign films either, had never seen a Bergman, and absolutely hated Malick. Then, had I placed something like Play Time in my DVD player, I would have turned it off after an hour. Now I love Bergman, have no problems with subtitles, enjoyed Play Time immensely when I watched the blu-ray earlier this year, and my views of Malick have toned down somewhat (although I still can’t stomach The New World). I will be giving Cimino and his beast of a film another viewing.

[insomniac013]

Originally Posted by broganreynik

I pre-ordered Following (along with a few other orders). It seems weird that they're allowing pre-orders of titles released in December, after the sale... but not the January titles. I'd have ordered Two-lane Blacktop and The Man Who Knew Too Much.

Actually, both Following and Rashomon are now 35$ instead of 20$. Damn, i should've ordered quicker!

[Alex DeLarge]

For me, Robin Wood's essay on Cimino's films including THE DEER HUNTER and HEAVEN'S GATE as well as his screenplay for THUNDERBOLT AND LIGHTFOOT is illuminating and helped me enjoy these films even more. I would urger you to check out his book Hollywood from Vietnam to Reagan, 1986 then watch the film(s). What I find wonderful about Art is that the Director's vision may be (and usually is) eclipsed by the viewer's own understandings and life experiences: each of us reshapes and remolds this into a form often times far different from the creator's intentions. I see LAST YEAR AT MARIENBAD as a ghost story but many would disagree including Resnais. I think the more one studies the craftmanship of HEAVEN'S GATE the more one can grow to enjoy it...or at least respect it.

[greekak229]

Sooo, does $35 on Rashomon online mean it won't be $20 in store? I would assume it would $20 be but why would BN up the price on it like that?

[COLD_COBRA_]

Originally Posted by greekak229

Sooo, does $35 on Rashomon online mean it won't be $20 in store? I would assume it would $20 be but why would BN up the price on it like that?

it will be 19.99 come tuesday. msrp is going to be $39.99

[kobeson]

What are the chances B&N will actually honour the cheap pre-order prices I got for Brazil and Qatsi trilogy? I ordered another 4 titles, all of which are in-stock and ship immediately - I am wondering if I should re-order those 4, have them ship to me now, and cancel those 4 from my order with Brazil/Qatsi, just in case I don't get any of them (expected to ship Dec 11, outside the sale). Have had too many orders cancelled on me in the past from B&N, want to get all those I ordered!!

If I cancel individual items from an order will those that I leave actually remain in the order at that cheaper price? Wouldn't be surprised if they changed them to the current prices for Brazil & Qatsi.

[pro-bassoonist]

There are some pretty interesting reactions which the Heaven's Gate review has generated. I would like to make a couple of final comments, however, because the text from the review that is being quoted is obviously used to produce speculations about its intent that are simply incorrect.

1. The review does not address those who may only dislike the film. The review addresses the extreme reactions and outright dismissal of the film. Disliking the film, to me, suggests that there is still some room for appreciation. Making a case against the film and its creators or outright dismissing the film does not. There are legendary bad reviews of Heaven's Gate that do precisely that.

Example from the famous NYT review:

The feeling for character has vanished and Mr. Cimino's approach to his subject is so predictable that watching the film is like a forced, four-hour walking tour of one's own living room.

Or Mr. Ebert's famous review:

At either length it is so incompetently photographed and edited that there are times when we are not even sure which character we are looking at. Christopher Walken is in several of the initial Western scenes before he finally gets a close-up and we see who he is. ........This movie is $36 million thrown to the winds. It is the most scandalous cinematic waste I have ever seen, and remember, I've seen Paint Your Wagon.

2. The extreme reactions also involve the inevitable comments on the film's financial history. I don't find the relationship between the film's financial history and its quality to be a particularly valid one - yet it appears that virtually all of the negative reviews build its case around it. This isn't only my personal observation either, it appears in plenty of critical writings on the film. Suffice to say, I don't form an opinion based on how well or how bad a film performed at the box office and what it ultimately did for the studio that produced it.

3. Lastly, like most people I also form an opinion while considering multiple factors from the presentation of a film. And even when I dislike the film, I usually find that there are certain aspects that I like/appreciate. Speaking against the film with an obvious intent to destroy its credibility or outright dismiss/discard it is what I addressed in the review as this isn't a practice that I am particularly fond of. Unfortunately, it is a damaging practice that even so called industry leaders still favor. Example (Variety review of Antichrist):

"Lars von Trier cuts a big fat art-film fart with "Antichrist". As if deliberately courting critical abuse, the Danish bad boy densely packs this theological-psychological horror opus with grotesque, self-consciously provocative images that might have impressed even Hieronymus Bosch...

All in all, I hope you would choose to see Heaven's Gate and form your own opinion, rather than take for granted the extreme reviews it generated years ago.

As always, thanks for reading.

Pro-B

[joie]

Is Criterion's "Heaven's Gate" (217 minutes; 216, according to Wikipedia) the same "Heaven's Gate" (219 minutes, according to Wikipedia) that was withdrawn after playing for only week?

A two-minute difference can be the product of a single cut or multiple insertions and deletions of a lot of material. Even if the runtimes were identical, there could be reordering of material.

Add: IMDb has the original theatrical release at 219 minutes and the "2012 Director's cut" at 216 minutes. Some may round up or down when the runtime has some seconds outside of an exact minute, I suppose.

By the way, Wikipedia mentions that Cimino did the 219 minute cut, so that must be another, earlier, "director's cut."

We have a similar situation with more than one "director's cut" with the soon to be released "Tin Drum."

Anyway, I am putting Criterion on watch for film history revisionism. You all should, too.

[ElliesDad]

Originally Posted by oildude

I find it funny that the review of Heaven’s Gate on blu-ray.com is generating controversy just like the film. I think the polarizing issue is Pro-b’s line in his review that anyone not liking the film must be an idiot. While I have high regard for Pro-b’s reviews, I found this comment beneath the usual astute level of his analysis. It comes across as having a condescending tone of superiority, which I am quite sure was not intended and, regardless, is one reviewer’s opinion that should not be taken personally on an internet forum.

[Show spoiler]I first saw Heaven’s Gate about eight years ago on a DVD rental. I thought it was overall not a good film, but not so horrendously bad to deserve its reputation. I rented it mainly for the visuals, since much of the film was shot on location in and around Glacier National Park, a place where I once worked as a bartender in one of the great lodges for a summer and spent a magical five months hiking the trails and peaks. Whatever Cimino’s intentions, I remember thinking Heaven’s Gate was frequently a mess. It seemed unfocused, in some scenes agonizingly dull and overly long, poorly scripted, yet there was enough good stuff in it to hold my attention to the end. If I recall correctly from articles I read, the film went crazy over budget due to Cimino’s megalomania and insistence on numerous takes and re-shoots, script changes, etc.

In my limited understanding of the filmmaking process, a director is more than just a visionary, he/she is also a project manager. A director has to be conscious of the budget given, act responsibly toward the stakeholders who have given him or her the money to bring the project to completion, communicate and accept compromises or limitations to artistic vision where necessary, and deliver the goods. It is a damn tough job that goes beyond directing a cast and crew. Whether Heaven's Gate has true artistic merit or values that went unappreciated in its time, Cimino didn’t get it done. Worse, his film bombed and bombed so fast and hard it brought down a studio and changed the way studios managed directorial freedom from that point forward.

I never had the desire to see it again. Frankly, if it wasn’t being released by Criterion, I would likely not be adding it to my collection. But I took advantage of amazon’s price and some credits to pre-order Heaven’s Gate and see if the intervening years have softened my views toward it. Ten years ago I didn’t care for subtitled foreign films either, had never seen a Bergman, and absolutely hated Malick. Then, had I placed something like Play Time in my DVD player, I would have turned it off after an hour. Now I love Bergman, have no problems with subtitles, enjoyed Play Time immensely when I watched the blu-ray earlier this year, and my views of Malick have toned down somewhat (although I still can’t stomach The New World). I will be giving Cimino and his beast of a film another viewing

Little confused here (not certainly for the first time). Several posts criticizing Pro-b's 'idiot' reference~ does he in fact review under the pseudonym Dr. Svet Atanasov? And who is "Casey, the communist"??

Have never seen the film. I remember well the furor surrounding it's release, but the review is intriguing. As far as the politics are concerned I'm assuming the cattle-barons are the new one-percenters? Are the politics any more ham-fisted than in, say, the wonderful "Grapes of Wrath"?

Just an aside Oildude...I worked for a summer as storeskeeper at another great lodge~ Minaki Lodge, in northern Ontario~ so I can well appreciate your nostalgia! and glad to see you're coming on board with Malik...

[kobeson]

Originally Posted by hariseldon

As long as your order was acknowledged I'm not sure why they won't honor it. Last year I pre-ordered all the Dec/Jan titles when they allowed the same glitch (for 10 hours anyway) and received them all.

If you cancel an individual item, it shouldn't affect the others since you are re-ordering.

Dis you receive your titles all outside the sale dates? that sounds promising!

My last 2 orders had titles cancelled on me during their sales, I would just be pissed if it came to Dec 12 and they say I can't have the preorder prices and the other 4 are no longer available (due to outside the sale). I guess I will take a chance, I don't order often these days so I hope it works!

Cheers :-)

[rock, stone]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

[Show spoiler]There are some pretty interesting reactions which the Heaven's Gate review has generated. I would like to make a couple of final comments, however, because the text from the review that is being quoted is obviously used to produce speculations about its intent that are simply incorrect.

1. The review does not address those who may only dislike the film. The review addresses the extreme reactions and outright dismissal of the film. Disliking the film, to me, suggests that there is still some room for appreciation. Making a case against the film and its creators or outright dismissing the film does not. There are legendary bad reviews of Heaven's Gate that do precisely that.

Example from the famous NYT review:



Or Mr. Ebert's famous review:



2. The extreme reactions also involve the inevitable comments on the film's financial history. I don't find the relationship between the film's financial history and its quality to be a particularly valid one - yet it appears that virtually all of the negative reviews build its case around it. This isn't only my personal observation either, it appears in plenty of critical writings on the film. Suffice to say, I don't form an opinion based on how well or how bad a film performed at the box office and what it ultimately did for the studio that produced it.

3. Lastly, like most people I also form an opinion while considering multiple factors from the presentation of a film. And even when I dislike the film, I usually find that there are certain aspects that I like/appreciate. Speaking against the film with an obvious intent to destroy its credibility or outright dismiss/discard it is what I addressed in the review as this isn't a practice that I am particularly fond of. Unfortunately, it is a damaging practice that even so called industry leaders still favor. Example (Variety review of Antichrist):



All in all, I hope you would choose to see Heaven's Gate and form your own opinion, rather than take for granted the extreme reviews it generated years ago.

As always, thanks for reading.

Pro-B

I don't know, you seem to be under the impression that those who took exception to parts of your review have done so because they can't comprehend what you are saying.

I'm not interested in getting involved in this, but they seem to have grasped what you say and how you have chosen to say it, and that is with what they are taking exception.

To imply otherwise is disingenuous, at best.

Cheers.

[marctheshark]

So I just got an email from B&N saying that my order (with Brazil and Heaven's Gate) is ready for shipping

Does this mean I *might* get these pre-orders early?

[COLD_COBRA_]

This is B&N sale is my first time ever buying Criterions.
How am i doing thus far?

[Beta Man]

Watch them, then let us know your thoughts, and THEN we'll let you know how you're doing.