The Criterion Collection

[tatterdemalion]

Originally Posted by Vigojean

Just another Millennial director masturbating to Lynch. At least Robert Eggers does it with style. And not nearly as annoying as Millennial directors (Gerwig, Wilde, Burnham) masturbating to Wes Anderson.

Lynch and Wes Anderson also borrowed a lot from other directors. Lynch does Hitchcock and Anderson does Buster Keaton and Jean-Luc Godard. I love Terrence Malick and he borrows heavily from Tarkovsky and Mizoguchi. Kore-eda Hirokazu borrows from Ozu and Naruse.

Sergio Leone is a prime example. He copied Yojmbo into A Fistful of Dollars, took Kurosawa's style and created his own out of it.

It's not the borrowing that would be the problem, it's the can you make the borrowing into your own style that counts, like classical composers variations on a theme.

[IncoherentBabble]

Originally Posted by dkelly26666

Well, tired of waiting the eternity for Criterion to issue Gillo Pontecorvo's "Queimada!" (AKA "Burn!"), starring Marlon Brando, (tis Kino that says they have had it forever), I finally caved and imported a German blu ray of it. It contains an extended cut with only German and Italian language options, and it has the slightly shorter U.S. cut with the English track (including Brando's own voice) as a supplement. I understand and can speak a good bit of Italian, and of course prefer the English cut in this case, for Brando's own voice. I waited for years...


So, the point being, you're welcome to anyone seeking a Criterion blu ray of this film. It will likely be released shortly, since I ordered this, LOL.

I, myself, would without doubt, double dip if/when a Criterion edition ever materializes.

Originally Posted by kvnbhovis

I'll stick to my DVD for the time being. Hopefully Criterion or MGM release it sooner rather than later.

The uncut version of Burn!/Queimada that's on the German Blu-ray does have English subtitles, even though the back cover doesn't mention them. Yes, the movie is entirely dubbed into Italian (which means you lose the way that Brando uses his voice), but the extra material is so necessary to the film, and it's about 20 minutes worth.

[dancerslegs]

Originally Posted by IncoherentBabble

The uncut version of Burn!/Queimada that's on the German Blu-ray does have English subtitles, even though the back cover doesn't mention them. Yes, the movie is entirely dubbed into Italian (which means you lose the way that Brando uses his voice), but the extra material is so necessary to the film, and it's about 20 minutes worth.

Agreed. As much as I would've preferred to have Brando's voice, the original Italian cut is clearly superior and the only version I bother with anymore.

[Luke B.]

Guys, there's some Criterion releases on my wishlist and I'm planning to buy 2 per month. I would like to know which ones I should priorize before they go OOP like Rosemary's Baby did (and I'm stuck with the Paramount release)

These are the ones I want to buy:

Blue Velvet
Mulholland Drive
The Virgin Suicides
All About Eve
Night of the Living Dead
The Before Trilogy
The 400 Blows
Babette's Feast
Lady Snowblood
Haxan
Hiroshima Mon Amour
L'Eclisse
Salo or 120 Days of Sodom
Sanjuro
Sid & Nancy
Valley of the Dolls

[regeyer]

Originally Posted by mmarczi

I'd love to hear your rationale for this conclusion. I'm pretty sure the winners are anybody who wanted Criterion 4Ks.

I am not a streaming only supporter. Far from it. But I'm also wise enough to see the writing on the wall. Disc sales are majorly down and continue to drop. People who swore they'd never use streaming, like me, use it constantly. Why? Because it's cheap and, more importantly, it's easy. I love being able to check out movies I've never watched, especially Criterion, before deciding whether to buy it. I'd say I buy less than 5% of the titles I watch on the Criterion Channel.

Look - we saw it with music and now we are seeing it with movies. Eventually all but a few things will be available only online. I'm not happy about it, but it's going to happen.

Not to mention the fact that in a few years what's available through streaming will likely have better PQ and AQ than what is available through physical media. Time marches on.

[mmarczi]

Originally Posted by regeyer

I am not a streaming only supporter. Far from it. But I'm also wise enough to see the writing on the wall. Disc sales are majorly down and continue to drop. People who swore they'd never use streaming, like me, use it constantly. Why? Because it's cheap and, more importantly, it's easy. I love being able to check out movies I've never watched, especially Criterion, before deciding whether to buy it. I'd say I buy less than 5% of the titles I watch on the Criterion Channel.

Look - we saw it with music and now we are seeing it with movies. Eventually all but a few things will be available only online. I'm not happy about it, but it's going to happen.

Not to mention the fact that in a few years what's available through streaming will likely have better PQ and AQ than what is available through physical media. Time marches on.

100% of this is immaterial to Criterion's decision to release UHDs, though. If anything, it very very marginally moves the needle in favor of physical media by simply offering a higher-quality product. You seemed to be implying that their releasing 4K discs specifically is bad for physical media and haven't provided an explanation for that. The news of streaming being popular is a bit old and entirely unrelated to the specific discussion, unless you were suggesting that people will just stream things instead of buying blu rays out of fear of an upgrade coming down the road. Which will happen, but in numbers too small enough to make a difference. Most people will realize that any blu ray Criterion releases now is not going to get a 4K disc from them anytime soon, so they either have to buy the blu ray or hope another label releases it on 4K if they must have a physical copy.

[TenYearLurker]

Originally Posted by regeyer

But I'm also wise enough

*citation needed

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by regeyer

I am not a streaming only supporter. Far from it. But I'm also wise enough to see the writing on the wall. Disc sales are majorly down and continue to drop. People who swore they'd never use streaming, like me, use it constantly. Why? Because it's cheap and, more importantly, it's easy. I love being able to check out movies I've never watched, especially Criterion, before deciding whether to buy it. I'd say I buy less than 5% of the titles I watch on the Criterion Channel.

This doesn't really prove anything, and not just because it's your own anecdotal evidence. The Criterion Channel is its own animal - not everything that streams on the channel is or is going to be released on physical by Criterion and vice versa.

[regeyer]

Originally Posted by mmarczi

100% of this is immaterial to Criterion's decision to release UHDs, though. If anything, it very very marginally moves the needle in favor of physical media by simply offering a higher-quality product. You seemed to be implying that their releasing 4K discs specifically is bad for physical media and haven't provided an explanation for that. The news of streaming being popular is a bit old and entirely unrelated to the specific discussion, unless you were suggesting that people will just stream things instead of buying blu rays out of fear of an upgrade coming down the road. Which will happen, but in numbers too small enough to make a difference. Most people will realize that any blu ray Criterion releases now is not going to get a 4K disc from them anytime soon, so they either have to buy the blu ray or hope another label releases it on 4K if they must have a physical copy.

You raise some excellent points. So let me try to clarify. I certainly do not think releasing UHDs is bad. What I see as problematic is the marketing, especially if they drop DVDs or only offer Blu-Ray/UHD combo packs. I know that I'm not going to be as eager to buy a Criterion if the sale price is $30. That's just too much, especially when I can borrow the DVD/Blu-Ray (maybe even the UHD eventually) from the public library for free or watch the movie on the Criterion Channel. If they offer UHDs in addition to the DVDs and Blu-Ray's they already offer then I don't see any damage to the marketing, although that could create additional costs for them.

As for purchases being limited, both of us are presenting an opinion. Neither of us can know for sure. But I do believe that people will limit their Blu-Ray purchases as they don't want to double or triple dip. They'll simply wait for the UHD. But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong, and I admit that.

[regeyer]

Originally Posted by TenYearLurker

*citation needed

LOL! Nice.

[regeyer]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

This doesn't really prove anything, and not just because it's your own anecdotal evidence. The Criterion Channel is its own animal - not everything that streams on the channel is or is going to be released on physical by Criterion and vice versa.

True. But I also buy less than 10% (these are guesstimates) of Criterions DVDs and Blu-Rays I borrow from the public library. And my public library seems to have then all.

[mmarczi]

Originally Posted by regeyer

You raise some excellent points. So let me try to clarify. I certainly do not think releasing UHDs is bad. What I see as problematic is the marketing, especially if they drop DVDs or only offer Blu-Ray/UHD combo packs. I know that I'm not going to be as eager to buy a Criterion if the sale price is $30. That's just too much, especially when I can borrow the DVD/Blu-Ray (maybe even the UHD eventually) from the public library for free or watch the movie on the Criterion Channel. If they offer UHDs in addition to the DVDs and Blu-Ray's they already offer then I don't see any damage to the marketing, although that could create additional costs for them.

As for purchases being limited, both of us are presenting an opinion. Neither of us can know for sure. But I do believe that people will limit their Blu-Ray purchases as they don't want to double or triple dip. They'll simply wait for the UHD. But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong, and I admit that.

We already know what the price point is. The average UHD/Blu-ray combo MSRPs at $49.99, and will be half off of that. Citizen Kane is $59.99 only because it contains four discs due to the extensive extras. So the average UHD on sale is only going to cost you $5 more than the average Blu-ray.

It will be interesting to see if they are really dropping DVDs at this point moving forward. It already appears they're definitely not going to put out DVDs for the titles they're doing on 4K (the other November titles being a box set and a box set standalone reissue make it ambiguous as to whether future Blu-ray-only releases will also be released on DVD).

We also already know that they're selling standalone Blu-ray releases of the titles they're releasing on UHD, so there is no issue about only UHD/Blu-ray combos being offered. Both Citizen Kane and Menace II Society, the two 'new' titles, have a Blu-ray-only listing.

The issue with the argument that people are going to hold off on buying things as they wait for an upgrade is that it's not new. People have been holding off on buying certain Criterion titles already hoping that a different label would put it out on 4K. Criterion starting to make UHDs merely adds one more potential label to the list, so their decision directly doesn't really move the needle in terms of making people less likely to buy now, because it's already been happening.

But the other thing is, for many of these people, when they don't buy that particular release, they just buy a different release instead, so the net expenditure is still the same. And at the end of the day the number of people doing this (holding out in the hopes of a 4K coming) is a fairly negligible percentage of the total number of people who are still purchasing physical media in large quantities. I still see people picking up DVD versions of the movie instead of the Blu-ray version right next to it when they step into the Criterion closet. 4Kers are a niche within a niche...they just happen to be awfully vocal.

[regeyer]

Originally Posted by mmarczi

We already know what the price point is. The average UHD/Blu-ray combo MSRPs at $49.99, and will be half off of that. Citizen Kane is $59.99 only because it contains four discs due to the extensive extras. So the average UHD on sale is only going to cost you $5 more than the average Blu-ray.

It will be interesting to see if they are really dropping DVDs at this point moving forward. It already appears they're definitely not going to put out DVDs for the titles they're doing on 4K (the other November titles being a box set and a box set standalone reissue make it ambiguous as to whether future Blu-ray-only releases will also be released on DVD).

We also already know that they're selling standalone Blu-ray releases of the titles they're releasing on UHD, so there is no issue about only UHD/Blu-ray combos being offered. Both Citizen Kane and Menace II Society, the two 'new' titles, have a Blu-ray-only listing.

The issue with the argument that people are going to hold off on buying things as they wait for an upgrade is that it's not new. People have been holding off on buying certain Criterion titles already hoping that a different label would put it out on 4K. Criterion starting to make UHDs merely adds one more potential label to the list, so their decision directly doesn't really move the needle in terms of making people less likely to buy now, because it's already been happening.

But the other thing is, for many of these people, when they don't buy that particular release, they just buy a different release instead, so the net expenditure is still the same. And at the end of the day the number of people doing this (holding out in the hopes of a 4K coming) is a fairly negligible percentage of the total number of people who are still purchasing physical media in large quantities. I still see people picking up DVD versions of the movie instead of the Blu-ray version right next to it when they step into the Criterion closet. 4Kers are a niche within a niche...they just happen to be awfully vocal.

Some excellent points. I hope you're right, especially about still providing DVD and Blu-Ray only options. I'm a fan of Criterion. I want them to succeed. I own many of their discs and am also a charter member of the Criterion Channel. And I just bought three more Blu-Rays during the last sale. I'm rooting for them and hoping they succeed. I'm just being honest and expressing my concerns. That's all. I'm not trying to put anyone else's opinion down and I'm certainly not hoping that Criterion fails.

Now it's time to watch "It Happened One night," which just arrived today from the last sale. I bought it from Amazon.

[NeoNical]

Originally Posted by Luke B.

Guys, there's some Criterion releases on my wishlist and I'm planning to buy 2 per month. I would like to know which ones I should priorize before they go OOP like Rosemary's Baby did (and I'm stuck with the Paramount release)

Wait are these actually going OOP soon? I’d recommend Lady Snowblood and Hiroshima. Only one that you should consider finding a way to rent or see before buying is obviously Salò.

[BunyipPouch]

Originally Posted by Luke B.

Guys, there's some Criterion releases on my wishlist and I'm planning to buy 2 per month. I would like to know which ones I should priorize before they go OOP like Rosemary's Baby did (and I'm stuck with the Paramount release)

These are the ones I want to buy:

[Show spoiler]Blue Velvet
Mulholland Drive
The Virgin Suicides
All About Eve
Night of the Living Dead
The Before Trilogy
The 400 Blows
Babette's Feast
Lady Snowblood
Haxan
Hiroshima Mon Amour
L'Eclisse
Salo or 120 Days of Sodom
Sanjuro
Sid & Nancy
Valley of the Dolls

I doubt any of those are going OOP anytime soon (especially the Lynch stuff) but just for the sake of it i'd go with Salo or 120 Days of Sodom (it sometimes goes OOS for a while) and The Before Trilogy (special packaging, in my mind that's always more likely to go OOP or downgraded than regular releases. Like the Guillermo Del Toro trilogy going OOP.).

Plus, both of them have anniversaries coming up pretty soon (Salo or 120 Days of Sodom 10 year anniversary in October, The Before Trilogy 5 year anniversary in February), and who knows maybe their licenses are re-negotiated on a 5-year basis. I vaguely remember the Kino Lorber Insider say that was common.

Plus they're both amazing releases that you should get regardless.

[acroyear2]

I fell in love with graphic design at an early age and as long as Criterion makes visually appealing packages I will always bend to buying their physical media. That's not to say I would never stream, just the reason I collect.

[pikachufan1336]

I know I'm a bit late but I'm thrilled about La Strada!!!!!!
Hopefully Nights of Cabiria is coming soon too!

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by pikachufan1336

Hopefully Nights of Cabiria is coming soon too!

I feel like this 4K scan will come to UHD. If not by Criterion, then by StudioCanal. I bought it twice last year, but would triple dip.

[Smegma]

Holding out for UHD upgrades might not just be for those with UHD setups. I imagine that once Criterion goes back and rescans the negatives in higher resolution, that the included Blu-ray will be derived from the new 4k scan and not a repack of the older disc, from the outdated scan? So even the Blu-ray will be an "improved" disc?

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by Smegma

Holding out for UHD upgrades might not just be for those with UHD setups. I imagine that once Criterion goes back and rescans the negatives in higher resolution, that the included Blu-ray will be derived from the new 4k scan and not a repack of the older disc, from the outdated scan? So even the Blu-ray will be an "improved" disc?

I guess it remains to be seen, but knowing Criterion, I'd say if they go through all that trouble to rescan, then yeah, I think we'd get a new BD as well. If they decide to update the supplement list for the UHD/BD edition at all, it's probably a certainty with the BDs hosting the supplements.

(This is actually the only part that worries me just a little, as a viewer. I wonder if interest in supplements will diminish some when you always have to switch discs for supplements, except for, I suppose, commentaries. Also, would they make an extra effort to start including commentaries regularly again, when that's likely the only supplement a UHD disc would probably hold?)