The Criterion Collection

[Rayjg]

Toho sells you a bottled coke and then charges you to use their bottle opener.

[Mushi Minion]

I don't even know why this is being argued when it's a known fact that Toho are a pain in the butt to deal with. Bastards assisted in killing Jan de Bont's Godzilla film in the '90s because they didn't approve of how many toes Stan Winston put on the mock-up Godzilla suit.

[tatterdemalion]

Originally Posted by Rayjg

Toho sells you a bottled coke and then charges you to use their bottle opener.

Toho on the left, us on the right: (Gimme the can opener! Gimme, gimme, gimme the can opener!)

[dr727]

There’s a lot to disseminate here and merit abound as these issues are complex.

However, as a decades-long (computing arts) friend/peer of Bob Stein, I think it’s very uncalled for to erase his & Aleen’s curatorial activity. I’m not familiar with C’s selection process today but I can say that it was committee-driven in the past and the Steins were an active part of that process—yes, even for few years after exiting their roles.

[Professor Echo]

My contention that Criterion might encourage more productive relations with loyal and potentially new customers by being at least a little more open about releases totally misses one very significant point:

They are probably having a blast reading the discussions in forums like this and wouldn't possibly consider giving up that fertile source of entertainment.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by dr727

There’s a lot to disseminate here and merit abound as these issues are complex.

However, as a decades-long (computing arts) friend/peer of Bob Stein, I think it’s very uncalled for to erase his & Aleen’s curatorial activity. I’m not familiar with C’s selection process today but I can say that it was committee-driven in the past and the Steins were an active part of that process—yes, even for few years after exiting their roles.

Thanks for your insight. Everything I've read, and the rare interviews I've seen with Becker, gives the impression that him and Turell play the strongest roles in the curation of the library in modern times. I am aware of Bob Stein being hugely instrumental in the early days of the Criterion and Voyager. So it is interesting to learn that the Steins (perhaps moreso Aileen from what I've read) had still played a larger role in that process in recent years than is known publicly.

Edit: Came across a great article that runs through some of the history of Voyager, Criterion and much more. I find it super fascinating

https://www.filfre.net/2021/06/bob-stein-and-voyager/

[ShellOilJunior]

I think CC releases typically fall into 1 or more of these 3 areas:

- it's profitable
- A good fit in the collection or covers an underrepresented area or country. This area includes spine upgrades
- it's something they really want to do - a passion project (e.g. For All Mankind UHD)

I think most blu-ray releases fall into the second bullet point. Thematically, the movie makes sense or is an existing spine upgrade.

Most UHD releases seem to cover at least #1

[Rayjg]

It wouldn't surprise if more than a few titles they have rights to were forced on them via package deals to get the films they really coveted. At least with the streaming channel they now have an outlet for them.

[hainesdogg]

Originally Posted by Rayjg

It wouldn't surprise if more than a few titles they have rights to were forced on them via package deals to get the films they really coveted. At least with the streaming channel they now have an outlet for them.

Just wait till they release "It's Pat" and blame a package deal.

[JasonMichael]

Originally Posted by hainesdogg

Just wait till they release "It's Pat" and blame a package deal.

They had to buy an entire package just to acquire "It's Pat"? Worth it!!!!
I hope they can get Scorsese, Lynch and Spielberg to do commentary.

[Nori]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Thanks for your insight. Everything I've read, and the rare interviews I've seen with Becker, gives the impression that him and Turell play the strongest roles in the curation of the library in modern times. I am aware of Bob Stein being hugely instrumental in the early days of the Criterion and Voyager. So it is interesting to learn that the Steins (perhaps moreso Aileen from what I've read) had still played a larger role in that process in recent years than is known publicly.

Edit: Came across a great article that runs through some of the history of Voyager, Criterion and much more. I find it super fascinating

https://www.filfre.net/2021/06/bob-stein-and-voyager/

Thanks for sharing the article. There's a lot to take in since my last post (a day later and two pages worth of content to catch up on).

It's a first for me to be called to as a conspiracy theorist I admit, but then I realized we already had this discussion maybe a year or two ago. I had mentioned that I had made a Japanese film suggestion to Aleen, that she liked it and told me she'd bring it up at the next meeting (you had asked me which film it was to which I replied). It didn't get picked but there was no doubt that the Steins were still very much involved in the decision making process. This was back in 2014 or 2015.

I'm positive that if the Steins hadn't left Criterion we'd have a very different looking library of films today. Broken down into raw numbers perhaps the number of Japanese films wouldn't be triple what we get now, but the kind of films would have been very different. I suspect we'd have more of the classics from the DVD era. I'm quite certain we'd Kobayashi's Samurai Rebellion, Teshigahara's Face of Another, Gosha's Sword of the Beast, Mizoguchi's Street of Shame (and more Mizoguchi in general), more Imamura and maybe Inagaki, and plenty more Kurosawa out on blu ray by now.

For fans of Japanese cinema you have to wonder what your priorities are, but if like me you love the old Criterion DVD library, then it's hard not to miss that. I haven't given up hope that these will sometime join the current library again. Just hoping for the best.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by Nori

Thanks for sharing the article. There's a lot to take in since my last post (a day later and two pages worth of content to catch up on).

It's a first for me to be called to as a conspiracy theorist I admit, but then I realized we already had this discussion maybe a year or two ago. I had mentioned that I had made a Japanese film suggestion to Aleen, that she liked it and told me she'd bring it up at the next meeting (you had asked me which film it was to which I replied). It didn't get picked but there was no doubt that the Steins were still very much involved in the decision making process. This was back in 2014 or 2015.

I'm positive that if the Steins hadn't left Criterion we'd have a very different looking library of films today. Broken down into raw numbers perhaps the number of Japanese films wouldn't be triple what we get now, but the kind of films would have been very different. I suspect we'd have more of the classics from the DVD era. I'm quite certain we'd Kobayashi's Samurai Rebellion, Teshigahara's Face of Another, Gosha's Sword of the Beast, Mizoguchi's Street of Shame (and more Mizoguchi in general), more Imamura and maybe Inagaki, and plenty more Kurosawa out on blu ray by now.

For fans of Japanese cinema you have to wonder what your priorities are, but if like me you love the old Criterion DVD library, then it's hard not to miss that. I haven't given up hope that these will sometime join the current library again. Just hoping for the best.

What I don't understand is, If they only left the decision-making process in recent years, then what exactly was stopping the Steins (plus Becker/Turrell) from releasing all the films you mentioned and more in the previous 10 or so years that Criterion has been releasing Blu-rays? Surely they had ample time to release any number of those, so why all of a sudden would you be positive that these would all come out, when they didn't during the bulk of time that they were a part of decision-making process? This is part of the reason why the whole regime-change theory doesn't really add up. If anything, it points to the Steins themselves not putting a fraction of the Japanese titles that they could have very well put out (assuming in this narrative that there are no issues with Toho).

I do agree that there is always hope for change. If it is a Toho / Criterion thing, then even that can be thawed, as these kinds of relationships are usually mutual. It's when one studio like Toho feels they are better off without the other, that the dynamic changes. Just look at Paramount. They decided a couple years back to not renew contracts for several films that Criterion held, including Harold and Maude, Don't Look Now, Rosemary's Baby, Days of Heaven, Nashville, and the solo release of La Dolce Vita. Paramount was making their own bigger splash in home video with the Presents line. Now fast forward a couple years, and they seem to be back to licensing to not only Criterion, but now also Arrow, and Kino as well in a big way.

[Nori]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

What I don't understand is, If they only left the decision-making process in recent years, then what exactly was stopping the Steins (plus Becker/Turrell) from releasing all the films you mentioned and more in the previous 10 or so years that Criterion has been releasing Blu-rays? Surely they had ample time to release any number of those, so why all of a sudden would you be positive that these would all come out, when they didn't during the bulk of time that they were a part of decision-making process? This is part of the reason why the whole regime-change theory doesn't really add up. If anything, it points to the Steins themselves not putting a fraction of the Japanese titles that they could have very well put out (assuming in this narrative that there are no issues with Toho).

I do agree that there is always hope for change. If it is a Toho / Criterion thing, then even that can be thawed, as these kinds of relationships are usually mutual. It's when one studio like Toho feels they are better off without the other, that the dynamic changes. Just look at Paramount. They decided a couple years back to not renew contracts for several films that Criterion held, including Harold and Maude, Don't Look Now, Rosemary's Baby, Days of Heaven, Nashville, and the solo release of La Dolce Vita. Paramount was making their own bigger splash in home video with the Presents line. Now fast forward a couple years, and they seem to be back to licensing to not only Criterion, but now also Arrow, and Kino as well in a big way.

You're right, perhaps they wouldn't have. I don't know the exact time of when they left but for the sake of argument let's imagine it was 2016. Then they'd only have had 8 years of work done during the the blu ray age (I believe they started in 2009). If they had stayed they would have had another 7 to 8 years since then. I think they probably would have released most of those films during that time but I'm just speculating.

[Azores26]

In addition to what MifuneFan has already explained, I think we can also look at the dates that the first Kurosawa blus were released by Criterion for another evidence that Toho is the one to blame.

Toho first started releasing Kurosawa films on blu-ray in Japan around 2009. Criterion released "Seven Samurai" and "High and Low", for example, about an year after the Toho releases, and both "Yojimbo" and "Sanjuro" were released by Criterion a few months after their respective Toho releases.

By 2011, Toho had already released multiple Kurosawa blus in Japan, including "Stray Dog", "The Bad Sleep Well", "Drunken Angel", "Red Beard", and even lesser known Kurosawa films like "One Wonderful Sunday". Criterion was sold in 2013, and even if the new owners were indeed uninterested in Japanese cinema, that would still give the old owners plenty of time to release the rest of the Toho Kurosawas on blu before the company was sold.

[GG88]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

I didn't ignore anything. I already addressed the output from other studios in previous posts.

But since I'm going crazy with lists today, I'll break down the last few years to show where Criterion have been licensing their Japanese films:

2019:

Godzilla Showa set - Toho

2020:

Antonio Gaudi - Toho

2021:

Onibaba - Toho

So since the Godzilla box they have only released 2 Toho titles both of which were dvd to Blu upgrades. I believe onibaba used the same master as the DVD. Dunno about Antonio Gaudi but if both were using older masters then it’s possible Criterion haven’t worked with Toho since the Godzilla box and the upgrades were allowed in the terms of the older deals

[DukeTogo84]

For me Criterion from 2000-2010 or so was pure bliss. There was hardly a month where I didn't have at least 1-2 titles I would pick up. It was a glorious time to be a film fan. I'm not sure how many of the titles from that era have been upgraded to Blu-ray, but would guess maybe 60%? I would love to see more of those titles get the upgrade and just wish Criterion had a similar release strategy during that era for todays title selections.

Also, taking Toho out of the equation, Criterion has the rights to over 50 Shochiku films. I'd like to see some upgrades there as well as new to Blu-ray. It looks like Shochiku is licensing out again as TerrorVision is going to release Cube. If Criterion were to release Hunter in the Dark, I would never say a bad thing about them again. I'd keep my mouth shut for the rest of my days, but I highly doubt they will ever release it.

[hoytereden]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

For me Criterion from 2000-2010 or so was pure bliss. There was hardly a month where I didn't have at least 1-2 titles I would pick up. It was a glorious time to be a film fan. I'm not sure how many of the titles from that era have been upgraded to Blu-ray, but would guess maybe 60%? I would love to see more of those titles get the upgrade and just wish Criterion had a similar release strategy during that era for todays title selections.

Also, taking Toho out of the equation, Criterion has the rights to over 50 Shochiku films. I'd like to see some upgrades there as well as new to Blu-ray. It looks like Shochiku is licensing out again as TerrorVision is going to release Cube. If Criterion were to release Hunter in the Dark, I would never say a bad thing about them again. I'd keep my mouth shut for the rest of my days, but I highly doubt they will ever release it.

A few months I wrote to them regarding the near abandonment of DVD upgrades to Blu and got the following response:

Thank you for your inquiry which I’ll share with the appropriate parties on my end. I understand your perspective, based on our more recent releases but can confirm that upgrading some DVD titles is on our radar and is something that we’re working towards. There are many factors at play in the process so I do appreciate your patience and understanding in the meantime.

Best,

JM

To borrow a term from Kramer- This doesn’t exactly fill me with “unbridled enthusiasm.”

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by hoytereden

A few months I wrote to them regarding the near abandonment of DVD upgrades to Blu and got the following response:

Thank you for your inquiry which I’ll share with the appropriate parties on my end. I understand your perspective, based on our more recent releases but can confirm that upgrading some DVD titles is on our radar and is something that we’re working towards. There are many factors at play in the process so I do appreciate your patience and understanding in the meantime.

Best,

JM

To borrow a term from Kramer- This doesn’t exactly fill me with “unbridled enthusiasm.”

I truly hope we see more upgrades as a lot of their 2000-2010 stuff are truly remarkable films.

[Professor Echo]

The loyalty exhibited to Criterion by some in this discussion baffles me, as does the overall steadfast respect, trust and overwhelming affection that is repeatedly displayed for this company in the face of any opposition or counter opinions. Long, loving posts are made in Criterion's favor proving this or that or disproving this or that and it all strikes me as rather curious. It seems that some folks can be constantly relied upon to rush to Criterion's defense at the drop of a perceived insult and do so over and over with a rhapsodic bliss of facts that definitively exonerate Criterion of any flaws whatsoever.

I like Criterion, I have been a huge fan of theirs from the Laserdisc days and have hundreds of their titles in my library. Even so, I have never unequivocally believed or espoused that they are without any faults. In fact, I have never felt that way about any company anywhere ever. I guess I kind of admire that some bestow a company with such inherent trust because my cynical nature will never allow that. I can't say it's wrong if people sincerely harbor that much loyalty and confidence, just that I do find it a bit baffling.

Well, that's why it's a good thing we're all different and can still live and let live and live and let learn.

[GenPion]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

The loyalty exhibited to Criterion by some in this discussion baffles me, as does the overall steadfast respect, trust and overwhelming affection that is repeatedly displayed for this company in the face of any opposition or counter opinions. Long, loving posts are made in Criterion's favor proving this or that or disproving this or that and it all strikes me as rather curious. It seems that some folks can be constantly relied upon to rush to Criterion's defense at the drop of a perceived insult and do so over and over with a rhapsodic bliss of facts that definitively exonerate Criterion of any flaws whatsoever.

I like Criterion, I have been a huge fan of theirs from the Laserdisc days and have hundreds of their titles in my library. Even so, I have never unequivocally believed or espoused that they are without any faults. In fact, I have never felt that way about any company anywhere ever. I guess I kind of admire that some bestow a company with such inherent trust because my cynical nature will never allow that. I can't say it's wrong if people sincerely harbor that much loyalty and confidence, just that I do find it a bit baffling.

Well, that's why it's a good thing we're all different and can still live and let live and live and let learn.

While I agree with this sentiment on some level, the overwhelming majority of Criterion releases have been of excellent quality - preserving classic films and making them available in superior editions. As a result, Criterion has earned a lot of trust. The belief in Criterion isn't blind and without merit.