The Criterion Collection

[No Name]

Originally Posted by gbm82

Worst month in a long time. Cryterion has jumped the shark

[Show spoiler]

[Shane Rollins]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Criterion also has The Wild Bunch (1969) now.
No idea when it will be prepped for release.

Originally Posted by Shane Rollins

Holy new information!

Where and when did you hear this? How did you hear this?

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Is this confirmed somewhere?

Originally Posted by Richard--W

No, as I said, no idea when.
But you may rely on the information.

Where was it confirmed that this is coming? Who confirmed it? Who said it? Did another Blu-ray.com user confirm it? Another site? DB or DF? Leaked memo? Someone at WB? Someone at Criterion? Someone else talked?

Show your sources.

[Areyakiddin]

Originally Posted by Shane Rollins

Where was it confirmed that this is coming? Who confirmed it? Who said it? Did another Blu-ray.com user confirm it? Another site? DB or DF? Leaked memo? Someone at WB? Someone at Criterion? Someone else talked?

Show your sources.

Source: My uncle who works at Criterion

He also says that another Michael Bay masterpiece will be entering the collection next month FYI.

[jshaide]

Is fettecini back??

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by Shane Rollins

Couple questions about some of the releases...

The "original theatrical release" is pretty self-explanatory.

The "Final Preview Cut", I'm 99% sure that's the version on all the 1988-onwards tapes and the laserdiscs, and is one of the discs in the 2005 DVD. I'm shocked there's not a 4K restoration of this, since it's arguably the best version of the movie (only one of the three in this set that Peckinpah oversaw, edited, and approved). Not a dealbreaker, but still a damn shame.

The "50th Anniversary Release", I'm not sure whether this is a new cut or the 2005 DVD cut that rightfully has a pretty controversial reception.

Someone please fill in the blanks/correct any mistakes here.....

Okay, let's clear up your confusion.

1. There were two theatrical previews to test the film before
audiences, to get their reactions. Each preview was a little
different. The First Preview was screened in April 1973. The
Second Preview was screened in early May 1973. The final
theatrical release 23 May 1973.

2. The First Preview is also known as the Turner Preview.
Turner misidentified it as a director's cut. It was NOT a
director's cut. It was NOT a final cut. This aired in Los
Angeles on the Z Channel in 1988, then it was pressed
to a laser disc and a VHS. That transfer was included in
Warner Brother's 2006 DVD set. Today it is reportedly
in badly deteriorated condition. Warner Brothers did not
give Criterion access to it.

3. The Second Preview had several differentiations made
by Peckinpah, but it's very close to the First Preview. It's
NOT a director's cut nor is it a FINAL CUT. Like the First
Preview it includes options to test before a live audience.
It has never been broadcast nor released to home video.
Few people have seen it since the once-only screening.
Peckinpah kept the only 35mm print. It's in ragged shape.
Paul Seydor facilitated it's loan to Criterion. It did not go
through WB. Criterion is said to have worked a restoration
miracle with it.

4. The 1973 theatrical release represents Peckinpah's
final decisions. You may not like it, but it was shown
'round the world for about sixteen years and is the
version that people fell in love with BEFORE the 1988
Z channel airing of the First Preview and subsequent
VHS, laser disc and DVD releases.

5. Criterions new edition includes the Second Preview, the
1973 theatrical release, and 50th Anniversary Edition
which is the longest and most complete version of the film
that Peckinpah would have approved if he had had the time
to work on the editing and no constraints on the duration.
All the story-telling elements he was working with in the
two previews and the theatrical release are in the 50th
Anniversary edition.

6. Hold onto your 2006 DVD for the First Preview. It will
probably end up as the only surviving record of that
version. Since the commentaries were not shared with
Criterion, Michael Sragow moderated a new commentary
with Paul Seydor and Roger Spottiswoode.

7. With the new Criterion edition, Paul Seydor has now
put the 3 original versions of Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid
on home video for Peckinpah fans. He has also offered us
the most complete and coherent edit of a troubled and
unfinished film.

[Taylor3978]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

4. The 1973 theatrical release represents Peckinpah's
final decisions. You may not like it, but it was shown
'round the world for about sixteen years and is the
version that people fell in love with BEFORE the 1988
Z channel airing of the First Preview and subsequent
VHS, laser disc and DVD releases.

I don't think people fell in love with the theatrical cut. They left theaters wondering WTF that was all about.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by Taylor3978

I don't think people fell in love with the theatrical cut. They left theaters wondering WTF that was all about.

Nonsense. Did you see it with audiences in 1973?

[hoytereden]

Originally Posted by Shane Rollins

It's either with Criterion or WAC, but I'm honestly not sure who has it. We know someone has it, we know it's coming from someone, we just don't know who or when. Perhaps asking GF during one of the podcasts would get some answers, but that's admittedly a hokey method of getting answers and it's not guaranteed to work.

Same situation with the two remaining Lewton films. It’s maddening that it’s taken this long. Besides, I want to finally retire my avatar.

[Shane Rollins]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

4. The 1973 theatrical release represents Peckinpah's final decisions. You may not like it, but it was shown 'round the world for about sixteen years and is the version that people fell in love with BEFORE the 1988 Z channel airing of the First Preview and subsequent VHS, laser disc and DVD releases.

Originally Posted by Taylor3978

I don't think people fell in love with the theatrical cut. They left theaters wondering WTF that was all about.

Wikipedia:

Post-production controversy, release and preview version

By the time that Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid was in the editing room, Peckinpah's relationship with the studio and his own producers had reached the breaking point. Peckinpah's first cut was 165 minutes. Aubrey, enraged by the cost and production overruns, demanded an unrealistic release date for the film. Peckinpah and his editors, given only three weeks, were forced into a desperate situation in order to finish editing on time. Furthermore, Aubrey still objected to several sequences in the film which he wanted removed, forcing Peckinpah to engage in protracted negotiations over the film's content. Adding to the problems, Bob Dylan had never done a feature film score and Peckinpah's usual composer, Jerry Fielding, was unhappy with being relegated to a minor role in the scoring process.

Peckinpah did complete a preview version of the film at 124 minutes, which was shown to critics on at least one occasion. Martin Scorsese had just made Mean Streets (1973) and was at the screening, and he praised the film as Peckinpah's greatest since The Wild Bunch. This version, however, would not see the light of day for over ten years. Peckinpah was eventually forced out of the production, and Aubrey had the film severely cut from 124 to 106 minutes, resulting in the film being released as a truncated version largely disowned by cast and crew members. This version was a box-office failure, grossing $8 million domestically, of which the studio earned only $2.7 million in theatrical rentals, against a budget of more than $4.6 million. However, the film grossed a total of $11 million worldwide.

[B]The film was also panned by most major critics, who had harbored high expectations for the director's spiritual successor to The Wild Bunch. Though she acknowledged its ambition and "amazing cast", Pauline Kael described the film as "peculiarly unrealized" and mused that "probably nobody involved was very happy about the results". Roger Ebert rated the film two stars out of four, beginning his review with: "Sam Peckinpah attempted to have his name removed from Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. I sympathized with him. If this wasn't entirely his work, he shouldn't have had to take the blame." Ebert went on to note, "Another alarming factor is that no less than six editors are credited. Not assistant editors, but editors; this sets a modern-day record, I think. My guess is that there was an argument over the movie's final form, and that Peckinpah and MGM platooned editors at each other during the battle. You'd think the executives would have figured out that their only chance was to release the movie as Peckinpah made it; audiences were more interested in the new Peckinpah film than in still another rehash of Billy the Kid." Gene Siskel of the Chicago Tribune awarded the same two-star grade and wrote that the film "appears to have been shot in emotional slow motion, and the self-inflating lethargy and mugging of all concerned reduces the enterprise to an exercise in pretension." Vincent Canby of The New York Times wrote that the film "has the manner of something written for Peckinpah by a writer who'd seen 'The Wild Bunch' and vowed to give the director an important script, something worthy of his talents. Instead, Mr. Wurlitzer has come up with what is apparently an unconscious parody of the Peckinpah concerns for fading frontiers, comradeship and machismo." Canby also found the Bob Dylan music "so oppressive that when it stops we feel giddy with relief, as if a tooth had suddenly stopped aching." Variety declared, "Whereas Peckinpah's nostalgia for a frontier world where might makes right and women were for the taking has previously been communicated via forceful acting and striking visuals, here there are few graces to camouflage the narrative banality."

Not every contemporary review was negative. Kevin Thomas of the Los Angeles Times wrote, "Although 'Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid' (at selected theaters) is approximately 15 minutes shorter than its director Sam Peckinpah cut it, it nevertheless emerges as a remarkable film that is perhaps Peckinpah's best, most mature work to date."[16] Richard Combs of The Monthly Film Bulletin was also generally favorable, declaring that "for all the deliberate—and occasionally over-schematic—summation of [Peckinpah's] previous work, Pat Garrett is remarkable for its intensity of mood (and for the growling, damped-down charisma of Coburn and Kristofferson); a singularly black and poetic evocation of a no-exit life style."

The film remained something of an enigma for the next decade, with rumors flying about other versions and the nature of what had been left out of the release version. Peckinpah himself was in possession of his own preview version, which he often showed to friends as his own definitive vision of the film.

On Rotten Tomatoes, the film holds a rating of 57% from 58 reviews with the consensus: "Sam Peckinpah's mournful salute to the bygone West achieves moments of ruthless poetry, but clear signs of studio-dictated cuts and oft-unintelligible dialogue will make this dirge a slog for some."[18]

Reappraisal, legacy and Special Edition

In 1988, Turner Home Entertainment, with distribution by MGM, released Peckinpah's preview version of Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid on video and Laserdisc. This version led to a rediscovery and reevaluation of the film, with many critics praising it as a lost masterpiece and proof of Peckinpah's vision as a filmmaker at this time. The film's reputation has grown substantially since this version was released, and the film has come to be regarded as something of a modern classic, equal in many ways to Peckinpah's earlier films. Kristofferson noted in an interview, though, that Peckinpah had felt that Dylan had been pushed on him by the studio and thus left "Knocking on Heaven's Door" out of the preview version. In Kristofferson's opinion, "Heaven's Door" "was the strongest use of music that I had ever seen in a film. Unfortunately Sam…had a blind spot there."

In 2005, a DVD of the film distributed by Warner Bros. was released containing the preview version as well as a new special edition which combined elements of the theatrical version, the preview version, and several new scenes never released in the previous versions. This third version of the film, known as the "special edition", runs slightly shorter than the preview version.

It appears very clear, from none other than Sam Peckinpah himself, that the cut that appeared on all 1988-onwards tapes, the laserdisc, and the DVD is in fact the director's cut of this film. He was showing the one print that was the source of that version and explicitly saying "this is the director's cut".

And very few people liked the theatrical cut, mainly because it was a jumbled mess. It didn't reflect Peckinpah's vision, whereas the First Preview Cut did. The theatrical cut reflected Aubrey's vision, although his vision was guided more by dollars than by a desire to tell a story.

I'll have to compile a new list of all the cuts for this movie. I'm shocked WB didn't give Criterion all the elements they needed. If they got It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad World off the ground, they could've gotten this one done too.

[Shane Rollins]

Originally Posted by hoytereden

Same situation with the two remaining Lewton films. It’s maddening that it’s taken this long. Besides, I want to finally retire my avatar.

I'm prepared to be wrong (for the seventh consecutive time), but I predict they're coming this October from WAC.

[Shane Rollins]

Originally Posted by Areyakiddin

Source: My uncle who works at Criterion

He also says that another Michael Bay masterpiece will be entering the collection next month FYI.

This must be seen to be believed. A Michael Bay film next month, followed by The Wild Bunch by the end of the year.

If this is real, this would be legendary. The Wild Bunch needs a quality release. And while Bay's films will never win Best Picture, they have always been demo discs since the laserdisc days, so for them to hit 4K would be a good thing at the end of the day.

[Mike0284]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Criterion also has The Wild Bunch (1969) now.
No idea when it will be prepped for release.

[Watershipdownisgood]

Honestly, most of Kubricks films minus 2001: A Space Odyssey, and The Shining I find amazing, and some of the greatest films ever made. I need to rewatch A Clockwork Orange as I never finished it, but I do absolutely despise 2001: A Space Odyssey it just really bores me to death. I’ve also never been interested in Eyes Wide Shut it’s just too weird, and a bit too sexual for my tastes. Still, Kubrick is still one of my favorite directors of all time, and some of my favorite films of all time are Kubrick films.

Remaining Kubrick films still to watch
Lolita
Fear and Desire
Killers Kiss
The Killing
Barry Lyndon
Spartacus very very long movie I own the film on 4K UHD plus Blu-Ray, but I’ve been putting off watching it for months

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by Mike0284

I'm keeping my sources to myself.
When I see a post like that ...

You make me regret sharing the good news.

I will delete my post since it upsets you
and you think what you want.

[Scottie]

RE: The Wild Bunch

I can see it happening. In fact, I can see Criterion releasing anything that they can get their hands on involving Peckinpah.

Junior Bonner seems to be OOP from Kino. Furthermore, both The Wild Bunch and The Getaway were both released 17 years ago in 2007. That was essentially the first full year of the Blu-ray format.

I would like to see Criterion get their hands on John Ford's masterpiece The Searchers. I had a conversation with a reliable source several years ago about WB releasing a newer version of the film, but I was told that WB has no plans on touching that film again.

[javy]

Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid for me. I have the 2017 Le Samouraï Blu-ray, but if the 4K includes a remastered BD I'll purchase. If not, I'll get the Pathe release. Black God, White Devil sounds good.

Pass on the rest.

[Mike0284]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

I'm keeping my sources to myself.
When I see a post like that ...

You make me regret sharing the good news.

I will delete my post since it upsets you
and you think what you want.

lmao. You could have worded the original post better so it didn't look like you were just making shit up.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by Shane Rollins

Wikipedia:

It appears very clear, from none other than Sam Peckinpah himself, that the cut that appeared on all 1988-onwards tapes, the laserdisc, and the DVD is in fact the director's cut of this film. He was showing the one print that was the source of that version and explicitly saying "this is the director's cut".

And very few people liked the theatrical cut, mainly because it was a jumbled mess. It didn't reflect Peckinpah's vision, whereas the First Preview Cut did. The theatrical cut reflected Aubrey's vision, although his vision was guided more by dollars than by a desire to tell a story.

I'll have to compile a new list of all the cuts for this movie. I'm shocked WB didn't give Criterion all the elements they needed. If they got It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad World off the ground, they could've gotten this one done too.

Alright, the First Preview is your favorite so you're
going to belittle the other versions of the film and
spin the gossip to "prove" what you want to believe.

The wiki page as quoted by you is erroneous.
Anybody can upload information on wiki.
Many conflicting agendas on that page.

Pauline Kael didn't know what she was talking about.
She is contradicted and disproved by Peckinpah's
authorized biographers.

Read the factual history of the film by Paul Seydor. The
trouble production and post-production and frantic
efforts to get the film ready for the release date (they
only had two weeks after the second preview) are fully
documented.

Read the biographical accounts by David O. Weddle
and Garner Simmons. Simmons was on the set in
Durango while the film was being made.

The Authentic Death and Contentious Afterlife of Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, The Untold Story of Sam Peckinpah's Last Western Film by Paul Seydor

Peckinpah: A Portrait In Montage by Garner Simmons

If They Move Kill 'Em! The Life and Times of Sam Peckinpah by David O. Weddle

Those three books answer all your questions and clear
up all the confusion.

No, the First Preview is not Peckinpah's director's cut.
That's a preposterous thing to say.
He never actually said that.

I'm old enough to have seen PG & BTK in theaters in
1973. I sat in crowded theaters with audiences who
were totally engaged and moved by the film. How
could they not be. I followed it on repertory screens
up to 2006 and saw it many, many times.

Pat Garret and Billy the Kid is a brilliant and moving
film in all it's versions. It won a dedicated following in
1973. I should know, I was there.

[Scottie]

Originally Posted by RNixon

You know WB are showing a new 4k restoration this year, yes? They're making a big deal of it so presumably keeping it for themselves.

I was not aware. Really glad that's happening!

[Taylor3978]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

I'm old enough to have seen PG & BTK in theaters in 1973. I sat in crowded theaters with audiences who were totally engaged and moved by the film.

I saw it in theaters in the 70s and didn't understand what was going on. My main memory is R. G. Armstrong who usually played a fire breather in Peckinpah films but apparently IRL was a hoot. I appreciated it much better when I saw the Anniversary cut on TCM. Presumably either the film had improved or I had improved.

I have fonder memories of being almost the only person in the theater when Blade Runner and Carpenter's The Thing came out. I hear Spielberg had a film out that year but I've never been interested in seeing it.