The Criterion Collection

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by Jaymole

Hopefully you own the DVD.

As time moves on, I am more and more accepting to make do with the DVD of many films which I know will probably never make it onto blu-ray.

That is also why I get way more excited for films coming on blu-ray for the first time over films upgrading onto 4K from bluray.

I can never figure out the NASA based home theaters people must have when they complain about DVDs looking terrible. I watch DVDs of favorite films that were never upgraded all the time and often they look spectacular with the upscaling of my equipment. And I have an 85 inch screen which would shred PQ if the software wasn't still rooted in excellent quality. I've posted this anecdote before here, but often when I have friends over to watch an MOD DVD-R from the Warner Archive, the first thing they say when it's over is usually: "Hey when did that movie come out on Blu? I didn't know there was a Blu-ray for that!"

[Brad1963]

Really? Is it a thousand titles they are sitting on? Come on now. Everyone needs to get a life already.

I've been a collector of Criterion since the late 1980's when I purchased my first Laserdisc player. In all this this time they have remained consistent in their objective to deliver quality cinema to physical media for collectors to own. They have never intended to make it about quantity and they have always taken their time. I know we now live in a world of "I want it now", but there was a time when the anticipation of waiting actually mean't something. Honestly, there are so many labels and so much to choose from at the moment. Criterion is not broken, you all just need to stop being so impatient and enjoy. The world thinks physical media is dead, but what I see is different. For this first time, it is about the collectors and the choices have never been stronger.

[mande2013]

Originally Posted by DFR

This is slightly off topic, but while this may not be top tier Ozu or Welles calibre filmmaking, it's very much a quintessential "movie" movie in that peculiarly 80s and 90s sense of what a "Movie" with a capital M is. I'm not sure if anyone else gets what I'm trying to say. The same is kind of true of something like Carlito's Way.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

My one and only encounter with a Criterion employee in the offline world came from the Laserdisc days when they had a company rep at a showcase day in a local video store. When I commented that it was a shame that their LD release of NORTH BY NORTHWEST came out in the improper aspect ratio this guy went ballistic on me, actually shouting how I had no idea what I was talking about and that none of Hitchcock's films needed to be letterboxed and that the proper ratio for NORTHWEST was 1:37. He was so obnoxious and rude an employee of the store had to come over and ask him to lower his tone. The next day I called Criterion's offices and reported what happened and they told me that mine was not the first complaint about the guy and that he would never be asked again to represent the company at any functions with the general public attending.

And of course, most of us have been on the blunt end with the often short fused KLI, so I don't think we will ever see a Criterion insider in this space. But as is proven everyday by reps for Hamilton Books, Mondo Macabro and Indicator, it is possible to deal with us and not blow up.

Wow! Thanks for sharing that story. Good on you for following up and not letting that pass.

I’ve had a lot of indirect contact with them through people who worked with them - I was lucky to talk with Monte Hellman a lot during the time he was getting his The Shooting / Ride in the Whirlwind set going with them - but the one direct contact I remember was going through the Criterion bins at Tower in the Bay Area, and one of the staffers happened to be there started talking to me. He said he couldn’t talk about specifics, but then he cracked and just couldn’t stop talking about their upcoming LD of Jason and the Argonauts, how thrilled he was, Ray Harryhausen and how it was the reason he got into that business. (IIRC, he hinted that they had Monty Python and the Holy Grail too, which did indeed show up the next year.)

[mande2013]

Originally Posted by Brad1963

Really? Is it a thousand titles they are sitting on? Come on now. Everyone needs to get a life already.

I've been a collector of Criterion since the late 1980's when I purchased my first Laserdisc player. In all this this time they have remained consistent in their objective to deliver quality cinema to physical media for collectors to own. They have never intended to make it about quantity and they have always taken their time. I know we now live in a world of "I want it now", but there was a time when the anticipation of waiting actually mean't something. Honestly, there are so many labels and so much to choose from at the moment. Criterion is not broken, you all just need to stop being so impatient and enjoy. The world thinks physical media is dead, but what I see is different. For this first time, it is about the collectors and the choices have never been stronger.

But some people don't think it being just 'about the collectors' is entirely a good thing. That's sort of the crux of this discussion. Industries explicitly catering to collectors inevitably ends up being a house of cards. See the sports cards industry. Collectors as a community generally start out as a byproduct of a niche but sustained interest in something that was once but is no longer a mass produced product.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by mande2013

But some people don't think it being just 'about the collectors' is entirely a good thing. That's sort of the crux of this discussion.

It is. But I also argue that it’s not just about the die-hard collectors now. They’re into more reasonably priced editions of new material now. Of course, one has access to vast tranches of full editions of their titles on the channel. They even have a live 24/7 stream of their titles now so you can just couch-surf as the most casual viewer. If you’re interested in film on any level, it’s kind of a spectacularly accessible time now.

I do sort of laugh at the talk about Criterion only being for moneybucks collectors now. Man, I was a poor kid in the 80s and 90s absolutely drooling over their CAV laserdisc special editions that were $125 IN 1980s DOLLARS. What is that now, like $400? And for a long time, that was the only game in town. (And yes, I was the kid who parleyed all his pizza delivery and odd job money into that obsession. You may feel free to pity me now. )

[Brad1963]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

It is. But I also argue that it’s not just about the die-hard collectors now. They’re into more reasonably priced editions of new material now. Of course, one has access to vast tranches of full editions of their titles on the channel. They even have a live 24/7 stream of their titles now so you can just couch-surf as the most casual viewer. If you’re interested in film on any level, it’s kind of a spectacularly accessible time now.

I do sort of laugh at the talk about Criterion only being for moneybucks collectors now. Man, I was a poor kid in the 80s and 90s absolutely drooling over their CAV laserdisc special editions that were $125 IN 1980s DOLLARS. What is that now, like $400? And for a long time, that was the only game in town. (And yes, I was the kid who parleyed all his pizza delivery and odd job money into that. You may feel free to pity me now. )

I mostly purchased the lower priced CLV discs, but I do remember when I had extra money, like a tax refund or birthday cash splurging for a CAV title. I bought Close Encounters of the Third Kind when it came out. It was the first time the 1977 and 1980 versions were ever on disc. It was at the time, an extraordinary release. Criterion was the model for what we now take for granted. I will always think they are a great label.

[Brad1963]

Originally Posted by mande2013

But some people don't think it being just 'about the collectors' is entirely a good thing. That's sort of the crux of this discussion. Industries explicitly catering to collectors inevitably ends up being a house of cards. See the sports cards industry. Collectors as a community generally start out as a byproduct of a niche but sustained interest in something that was once but is no longer a mass produced product.

My whole point is they will never be anything but who they have already established themselves to be. They will never be mainstream, they are a niche label.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by Brad1963

I mostly purchased the lower priced CLV discs, but I do remember when I had extra money, like a tax refund or birthday cash splurging for a CAV title. I bought Close Encounters of the Third Kind when it came out. It was the first time the 1977 and 1980 versions were ever on disc. It was at the time, an extraordinary release. Criterion was the model for what we now take for granted. I will always think they are a great label.

Oh man, I still have that release too - it remains groundbreaking. (Their Bram Stoker’s Dracula too, for similar reasons.) I don’t have a lot of my Criterion LDs anymore, but I still have CE3K, 2001, Dracula, Akira, Blade Runner, and Strangelove (with the deleted screenplay). It kind of reminds me of who I was back then.

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by Sifox211

It seems to be that almost everyone who responded to Duke's post has ignored the main point, which is that Criterion is sitting on a thousand titles and is not releasing them and this prevents others from doing so. Actual selection of titles he'd like to see released is a sub point.

Presumably, Criterion's strategy in this regard is focused on their streaming channel; but as a business they might realise some cash by licencing out the physical media options for titles they themselves are not planning to release.

This. As others have mentioned out of the thousand of titles Criterion has that they DON'T release how much profit can be made on the films even with a 4k master? A lot of the films they have are the niche of the niche. I would make an argument for a lot of films that could do really well like Hanzo the Razor and other crime films, but a lot of the films on their own may not make a lot of sense for probably the LARGEST boutique label.

The Eclipse line would be better suited for a lot of these films, but Criterion abandoned ship on that idea a long time ago which is a true shame.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, they need tuck in their shirt, straighten up their hair, shine their shoes, and extend their hands to other labels to sub license. Professor Echo said Criterion has too much pride to do something like this, and its possible. It's also possible that Criterion isn't well liked by other labels. Do they share features with other labels which is something I've noticed labels do with each other? When I've heard from other labels I've never heard a nice word said about Criterion in terms of collaboration. Labels have constantly told me that CAN'T release films because of Criterion, and this is in the UK where Criterion isn't even streaming these films. It seems like Criterion exists in their own vacuum of space and other labels be damned to get close.

So I don't know how realistic sub licensing is, but it's the only realistic option I see for some of these films. It's NOT just about the films I like, it's about ALL the films. I'm happy when a film that has no release gets a chance. Of course I want those Japanese films, but there is a bigger picture at hand here. I'm happy when Criterion does put out something new. Drugstore Cowboy is fantastic news, but seeing Cronos and Punch Drunk Love especially take up two of the monthly slots is really disheartening and disappointing. Criterion in my personal eyes is a far cry of what they once were, but again this is simply one mans opinion.

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

A response both patronizing and dismissive at the same time! There you go Duke, I would say your expectation of a devout Criterion fan chiming in has been fulfilled.

Oh, I expected it, and came in with that mindset when making the posts that I have. I don't take it personally. I know people love the company and what they do, but I would just like to point out the cracks in their armor and it's not all sunshine and roses with Criterion. I'm not saying they haven't done good over the years, but if they were willing to collaborate to get more movies out there, that would be a film fans best outcome.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

A response both patronizing and dismissive at the same time! There you go Duke, I would say your expectation of a devout Criterion fan chiming in has been fulfilled.

Well, if you want to repeatedly post the same unreasonable argument hand in hand with trashing Criterion what do you believe is the appropriate response?

If I am dismissive it is because his argument has no merit. None.

If I am patronizing it is because he has posted the same argument on repeated occasions and that is exactly his intent, to make his preferences known and to elevate his wants over all other considerations. We get it.

And here I was, being generous no less.

Do you believe for one moment that the thousands of Criterion buyers over the years don't have titles they wish would have or would be released? They're not trashing Criterion out of hand, nor should they.

Criterion has done more to elevate Japanese cinema here in the US than every other label combined, and instead of an acknowledgment or note of appreciation, I've got to read this nonsense, and get this, while Criterion has Hunter in the Dark available on iTunes and streaming via the Criterion Channel.

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

If I am dismissive it is because his argument has no merit. None.

This is more of a you issue than anything else. You are known on this forum for a lack of perspective taking and trying to be an omniscient presence. We get it, but from time to time you need to look back and what you're saying and see how much it applies to others.

I'm not perfect and I understand that my opinions won't gel with everyone, and I try my best to reflect and make it clear that this is my personal opinion and I try my best not to INSULT someone else's even if I disagree. From every SINGLE post I've read from you, you lack self awareness. You even made someone quit this forum who was one of the the biggest contributors because of you constant barrage of nonsense over the film Flowers of the Killer Moon.

I could continue writing, but what's the point? You probably are not going to reflect on anything and are going to remain on your high horse thinking you're better than everyone else which is what 100% of your posts indicate. So not sure why I even bothered to respond.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

I try my best to reflect and make it clear that this is my personal opinion and I try my best not to INSULT someone else's even if I disagree.

We’ve had very hot and pointed disagreements on Criterion stuff (and occasionally seen eye-to-eye on some things too ), but you have treated me with respect and I appreciate it.

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

We’ve had very hot and pointed disagreements on Criterion stuff (and occasionaly seen eye-to-eye on some things too ), but you have treated me with respect and I appreciate it.

At the end of the day we all love movies or else we wouldn't be here. It's perfectly fine to disagree as. As Voltaire said "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

I think as long as we share our points and are not dismissive of each other this place can be a fun site to have discussions. No one is better than anyone else and all share varied viewpoints.

I actually enjoy your perspectives and continue to look forward to your posts when we agree and even when we disagree.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

This is more of a you issue than anything else.

A me issue? What do I have to do with the fact it's 2024, the state of physical media, and on point, Criterion's license and release strategy?

We are all free to express an opinion, but when an opinion is lacking of perspective and is directed at someone's else's expense, in this case Criterion, well, what is your expectation?

[Azores26]

Originally Posted by DukeTogo84

This. As others have mentioned out of the thousand of titles Criterion has that they DON'T release how much profit can be made on the films even with a 4k master? A lot of the films they have are the niche of the niche. I would make an argument for a lot of films that could do really well like Hanzo the Razor and other crime films, but a lot of the films on their own may not make a lot of sense for probably the LARGEST boutique label.

The Eclipse line would be better suited for a lot of these films, but Criterion abandoned ship on that idea a long time ago which is a true shame.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, they need tuck in their shirt, straighten up their hair, shine their shoes, and extend their hands to other labels to sub license. Professor Echo said Criterion has too much pride to do something like this, and its possible. It's also possible that Criterion isn't well liked by other labels. Do they share features with other labels which is something I've noticed labels do with each other? When I've heard from other labels I've never heard a nice word said about Criterion in terms of collaboration. Labels have constantly told me that CAN'T release films because of Criterion, and this is in the UK where Criterion isn't even streaming these films. It seems like Criterion exists in their own vacuum of space and other labels be damned to get close.

So I don't know how realistic sub licensing is, but it's the only realistic option I see for some of these films. It's NOT just about the films I like, it's about ALL the films. I'm happy when a film that has no release gets a chance. Of course I want those Japanese films, but there is a bigger picture at hand here. I'm happy when Criterion does put out something new. Drugstore Cowboy is fantastic news, but seeing Cronos and Punch Drunk Love especially take up two of the monthly slots is really disheartening and disappointing. Criterion in my personal eyes is a far cry of what they once were, but again this is simply one mans opinion.

I think Criterion's rationale is pretty simple, they just prioritise the films they believe will sell more. "Punch-Drunk Love" features some big American movie stars and the director of "Cronos" is pretty well known, so it's not hard to see why Criterion may think that these releases will reach a larger audience than the average Criterion film.

But I agree about the Eclipse line, it's a shame they don't do these anymore. I wish their Janus Contemporaries line wasn't only focused on... well, contemporaries lol. Would be a great opportunity to release more niche films alongside their regular releases.

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

A me issue? What do I have to do with the fact it's 2024, the state of physical media, and on point, Criterion's license and release strategy?

We are all free to express an opinion, but when an opinion is lacking of perspective and is directed at someone's else's expense, in this case Criterion, well, what is your expectation?

Well, my expectation was met as you replied exactly like I knew you would, although I had hoped for something else that would have been more reflective. I guess that was too much to ask for.

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by Azores26

I think Criterion's rationale is pretty simple, they just prioritise the films they believe will sell more. "Punch-Drunk Love" features some big American movie stars and the director of "Cronos" is pretty well known, so it's not hard to see why Criterion may think that these releases will reach a larger audience than the average Criterion film.

But I agree about the Eclipse line, it's a shame they don't do these anymore. I wish their Janus Contemporaries line wasn't only focused on... well, contemporaries lol. Would be a great opportunity to release more niche films alongside their regular releases.

Yeah, I'm not surprised why they released Cronos and Punch Drunk Love as the potential for sales are higher. There has been a forward movement towards 4K and these two are damn good movies.

I would love to see the Eclipse line to resurface for the HD line. Create a noir set and I can assure you it would do well. I mean Kino keeps releasing noir sets. It probably won't hit Punch Drunk Love numbers, but it will have an audience.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by Azores26

I think Criterion's rationale is pretty simple, they just prioritise the films they believe will sell more. "Punch-Drunk Love" features some big American movie stars and the director of "Cronos" is pretty well known, so it's not hard to see why Criterion may think that these releases will reach a larger audience than the average Criterion film.

Sales are undeniably an enormous factor, but I also feel like maintaining relationships are at least as important. Like, keeping in the PTA business at every opportunity hopefully increases the chances we’ll get, like, Boogie Nights or even the long-rumored Hard Eight - his cut, fingers crossed! - but other films. For instance, PTA is a huge fan of The Bad News Bears and Bugsy Malone and just did a TCM spotlight on them. Maybe that increases the chances that they’d be licensed for Criterion, to have a big name championing them? I know there are films that Criterion would leap on but they’ve hit numerous roadblocks. (They’d do anything to have Grand Illusion back, I’m sure.)

Sometimes these things have a much bigger downstream impact than we think.