The Criterion Collection

[Volume11]

Originally Posted by captveg

I don't see the big deal about the Kurosawa box. I'm not gonna buy it because I don't want all the titles (and I plan on buying the inevitable Blu releases of many of these films). Clearly this release was not intended for the lover of bonus material and all things Criterion, nor for those who don't take to Kurosawa. And.... so? Don't by it. The end.

As for Seven Samurai, whether or not it is his best film is debatable. What is not debatable is that it is a great film. It happens to be my favorite of his films, but he has so many great films that choosing a favorite is burdensome in the way that choosing between great varieties of food is burdensome.

And I think people greatly overestimate the exposure of Kurosawa to Americans. We're talking about, what, 10% of Americans who would even care to watch any of his films, and then maybe 10% of those that would seek out more than one of his films, and then maybe 10% of those that would look to argue the finer points of why he's "popular" in the US. This isn't Iron Man we're talking about here.

No, but his popularity in Japan is even more tenuous in some ways so the question deserves to be debated as to wehther he is overrated or not.

Likewise, even if you think he is the bees knees he is certainly over represented in the Criterion Collection.

[captveg]

Originally Posted by Volume11

No, but his popularity in Japan is even more tenuous in some ways so the question deserves to be debated as to wehther he is overrated or not.

Eh, whatever. I watch what I like. Ranking of one artist vs. another doesn't concern me too much anymore.

Originally Posted by Volume11

Likewise, even if you think he is the bees knees he is certainly over represented in the Criterion Collection.

Bergman, Fellini, Kurosawa, etc. - some directors are prestigious and marketable, and therefore become staples. It's just the way it is. Every business, even a niche one, needs its bread and butter.

[retablo]

Originally Posted by Volume11

Likewise, even if you think he is the bees knees he is certainly over represented in the Criterion Collection.

It's within Criterion's right to release whatever they want. They aren't bound by any obligations to release 1 of his films or 25... they do as they please. That's what makes them a great company, not bound by studio trappings.

I'd make a claim that Godard is over represented with 10 films (no offense CassavettesGodard, just using it as an example). Or Fellini with 9. Especially when other iconic directors don't even have 1. Bergman has 22... and I think he deserves 22. And Kurosawa is big enough, especially in his influence to so many Western filmmakers, to warrant a big release.

[captveg]

And I'm pretty sure Criterion would love to release 25 titles from Hitchcock, Ford, Eastwood, Scorsese, Hawks, and so on, but rights issues being what they are they release what they can. They happen to have access to 84% (25/30) of Kurosawa's films. You can't pass up releasing them.

[SpiderBaby]

Originally Posted by retablo

It's within Criterion's right to release whatever they want. They aren't bound by any obligations to release 1 of his films or 25... they do as they please. That's what makes them a great company, not bound by studio trappings.

I'd make a claim that Godard is over represented with 10 films (no offense CassavettesGodard, just using it as an example). Or Fellini with 9. Especially when other iconic directors don't even have 1. Bergman has 22... and I think he deserves 22. And Kurosawa is big enough, especially in his influence to so many Western filmmakers, to warrant a big release.

Just being curious here, but why is it that Bergman deserves 22 but Godard (who Criterion has not put out later work of, still has 4 decades they haven't touched) is over represented at 10? I just think people have different opinions and to have Bergman at 22 is too much in my opinion. I'm not taking offense because it's not my films, just opinions matter in this, since I think Bergman is over represented. IMO, take out being a fan of Godard, I think they should release more and they are. Vivre sa Vie, Weekend, and the number of 70's-80's titles that they have yet to touch. Also some important "New Wave" titles which have not been hinted at like La Chinoise.

I do agree though with 9 for Fellini is enough.

[neo_reloaded]

Originally Posted by CassavetesGodard

Just being curious here, but why is it that Bergman deserves 22 but Godard (who Criterion has not put out later work of, still has 4 decades they haven't touched) is over represented at 10? I just think people have different opinions and to have Bergman at 22 is too much in my opinion. I'm not taking offense because it's not my films, just opinions matter in this, since I think Bergman is over represented. IMO, take out being a fan of Godard, I think they should release more and they are. Vivre sa Vie, Weekend, and the number of 70's-80's titles that they have yet to touch. Also some important "New Wave" titles which have not been hinted at like La Chinoise.

I do agree though with 9 for Fellini is enough.

I think you missed the point. He just picked popular Criterion directors and showed that the same point the guy is trying to make about Kurosawa could be made about any of them. People have their own personal favorites, and it's tough to divorce emotion from such conversations, especially when talking about directors who are all very worthy of being in the Criterion Collection.

[retablo]

Originally Posted by CassavetesGodard

Just being curious here, but why is it that Bergman deserves 22 but Godard (who Criterion has not put out later work of, still has 4 decades they haven't touched) is over represented at 10? I just think people have different opinions and to have Bergman at 22 is too much in my opinion. I'm not taking offense because it's not my films, just opinions matter in this, since I think Bergman is over represented. IMO, take out being a fan of Godard, I think they should release more and they are. Vivre sa Vie, Weekend, and the number of 70's-80's titles that they have yet to touch. Also some important "New Wave" titles which have not been hinted at like La Chinoise.

I do agree though with 9 for Fellini is enough.

I was just making an example. But thats my point entirely — Bergman is my fav, so I want them all on Criterion. He's not yours, and you feel he's over represented.

But the whole nothing of a director being over represented is ridiculous anyway... because there's not a standard they follow. If they had a quota to meet (like 10 of each director then no more) then maybe... but it's silly to put a numerical limit on how many films people think they should release. They release what they think will sell, what they can get the rights to, etc... And as far as I'm concerned, they have a wide enough range of directors and titles to appease everyone.

I mean, I love David Lynch, and Herzog, and countless others, but I'm not complaining because they are'nt Criterion releases. I'm just happy to have the Criterion titles they DO release.

[Volume11]

Originally Posted by retablo

I was just making an example. But thats my point entirely — Bergman is my fav, so I want them all on Criterion. He's not yours, and you feel he's over represented.

But the whole nothing of a director being over represented is ridiculous anyway... because there's not a standard they follow. If they had a quota to meet (like 10 of each director then no more) then maybe... but it's silly to put a numerical limit on how many films people think they should release. They release what they think will sell, what they can get the rights to, etc... And as far as I'm concerned, they have a wide enough range of directors and titles to appease everyone.

I mean, I love David Lynch, and Herzog, and countless others, but I'm not complaining because they are'nt Criterion releases. I'm just happy to have the Criterion titles they DO release.

Obviously I'm not complaining about what Criterion releases. I like plenty of Kurosawa's films and happily bought Kagemusha on Blu. I also stated I respect his position in the realm of film history. However, I still think its a fair point to say that he is over-rated, particularly in the U.S. And yes, thats an opinion. As is 99% of most of the things we talk about... why are Criterion and their releases above criticism (or having simple opinions without any hate or vitriol added). Is it because they are a small company?

Likewise, the friendly debate that's been going on since it was brought up has been much better than the random, "I bought x y release", or, "which should I buy?" posts we usually get. Its actually nice to get some discussion about THE FILMS instead of the packaging or who has every Criterion Blu.

[Kartoon]

Originally Posted by Volume11

No, but his popularity in Japan is even more tenuous in some ways so the question deserves to be debated as to wehther he is overrated or not.

Likewise, even if you think he is the bees knees he is certainly over represented in the Criterion Collection.

Would you rather someone be under represented then over represented? Even though they have the rights to all these movies they shouldn't release them, and we should be stuck with inferior versions, because "oh we have X number already". Really? It's not like they can get the rights to any movie they want. Just because you want X movie from Y director doesn't mean they can just make a phone call and have it, that's not how it works.They work with what the can get and that's how it goes.

[Volume11]

Originally Posted by Kartoon

Would you rather someone be under represented then over represented? Even though they have the rights to all these movies they shouldn't release them, and we should be stuck with inferior versions, because "oh we have X number already". Really? It's not like they can get the rights to any movie they want. Just because you want X movie from Y director doesn't mean they can just make a phone call and have it, that's not how it works.They work with what the can get and that's how it goes.

Again, I don't really care one way or the other. And I never stated I preferred this director over that director or that my favorite director has too many films or not enough. I think Bergman and Kurosawa are both over-represented. Quite frankly it makes little difference to me as to why they are...nor did I bring up rights issues or call out Criterion.

Just making some friendly chit chat about movies. And in reality if I were to state an opinion about how they release I would prefer a FEW titles from MORE directors...but even then I can;t fault Criterion as they have around 500 DVD releases that certainly cover a wide variety of directors.

Like I said in my first post, I knew Id get publicly shunned for suggesting Kurosawa might be a little over-rated in the states and that he is over represented in the CC.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Volume11

Like I said in my first post, I knew Id get publicly shunned for suggesting Kurosawa might be a little over-rated in the states and that he is over represented in the CC.

I think it's unfair to suggest that you're being "shunned." From what I can tell, most people are just engaging in the same "friendly chit chat about movies" that you claim to be. They're just in friendly disagreement with you.

[kndy]

Actually, your posts are fine. It's good to have these engaging posts and also for the lurkers who are just getting into Criterion titles. Otherwise, if you want to be shunned or get into interesting debates, then there's criterionforum.org (that is if your posts receive consideration to be included in their forum...hehe).

Anyway, I'm interested in later Godard films (actually, open to more Godard films period) but I think for a lot of Criterion hardcore fans, it's come to the point where people want to see more directors represented from other countries than Japan, France, Italy and USA.

So, far it looks like the Blu-ray releases have been quite diverse with the types of releases available and judging by the B&N Criterion thread, it looks like a lot of people really went all out in purchasing every title and some who probably have had no familiarity with the directors or Criterion prior to the sale.

Definitely would like to hear from them about what they thought with the Blu-rays they purchase.

Btw...finished watching and now finishing up the special features for Criterion's "Battle with Algiers"...would love for this to come out on Blu-ray! What an amazing film and talk about solid Criterion supplements. Wow!

[SpiderBaby]

Originally Posted by retablo

I was just making an example. But thats my point entirely — Bergman is my fav, so I want them all on Criterion. He's not yours, and you feel he's over represented.

But the whole nothing of a director being over represented is ridiculous anyway... because there's not a standard they follow. If they had a quota to meet (like 10 of each director then no more) then maybe... but it's silly to put a numerical limit on how many films people think they should release. They release what they think will sell, what they can get the rights to, etc... And as far as I'm concerned, they have a wide enough range of directors and titles to appease everyone.

I mean, I love David Lynch, and Herzog, and countless others, but I'm not complaining because they are'nt Criterion releases. I'm just happy to have the Criterion titles they DO release.

I would actually love Herzog on Criterion. That is one of the directors that isn't represented that I want.

Also I wasn't complaining about how many each director gets (don't know where that started actually).

I hope you don't think I responded to you with as an argue. You seem pretty cool on here, I was just stating my opinions. Just so that is cleared. It is hard to write on the computer with opinions and don't come off as a ***.

[QuasidodoJr]

Originally Posted by CassavetesGodard

It is hard to write on the computer with opinions and don't come off as a ***.

Agreed. I can't tell you how many times I read someone's post on a message board, that disagrees with my own personal opinion, where a part of me goes directly to thinking, "Well, that person's a jerk!"

In fact, I think you're all jerks at least some of the time.

[SpiderBaby]

Originally Posted by Volume11

Obviously I'm not complaining about what Criterion releases. I like plenty of Kurosawa's films and happily bought Kagemusha on Blu. I also stated I respect his position in the realm of film history. However, I still think its a fair point to say that he is over-rated, particularly in the U.S. And yes, thats an opinion. As is 99% of most of the things we talk about... why are Criterion and their releases above criticism (or having simple opinions without any hate or vitriol added). Is it because they are a small company?

Likewise, the friendly debate that's been going on since it was brought up has been much better than the random, "I bought x y release", or, "which should I buy?" posts we usually get. Its actually nice to get some discussion about THE FILMS instead of the packaging or who has every Criterion Blu.

I think some people will argue opinions like yours and mine because they thought guys like Kurosawa and Bergman were the "top dogs" and when someone has an opinion saying there not, it shatters what they know.

People grow. One day you like Bergman (as did I) but know you'll find better.

Most people is just starting out thinking Criterion is the best thing ever with everything they put out is A+.

People like to call me "pretentious" and "snob" on here, but really the people who think Bergman and Kurosawa (just making a point, not fighting with posters) are the best, are just learning what other people has said. It's like jumping on the bandwagon. I am actually the complete opposite of pretentious. Sure I don't like Transformers or Spielberg. That doesn't make me pretentious. It just means I am not a zombie to stupid crap. I love movies like Master of the Flying Guillotine and The Mack. How am I a "film snob" if I love B-movies?

Also I love some of Bergman's films. He is just not my fav. I want movies that piss people off, you know. Speaks out against stuff. Has it's own voice. Movies that are like rebellious towards "the same" that people always watch.

[SpiderBaby]

Originally Posted by QuasidodoJr

Agreed. I can't tell you how many times I read someone's post on a message board, that disagrees with my own personal opinion, where a part of me goes directly to thinking, "Well, that person's a jerk!"

In fact, I think you're all jerks at least some of the time.

I do the same thing. I always try to say sorry alot, because I don't like to fight (online anyways, it's stupid. Never, and probably will never meet these people, so why?), so if I ever come of as an a**, don't think that way people.

[Q?]

Originally Posted by CassavetesGodard

I think some people will argue opinions like yours and mine because they thought guys like Kurosawa and Bergman were the "top dogs" and when someone has an opinion saying there not, it shatters what they know.

People grow. One day you like Bergman (as did I) but know you'll find better.

Most people is just starting out thinking Criterion is the best thing ever with everything they put out is A+.

People like to call me "pretentious" and "snob" on here, but really the people who think Bergman and Kurosawa (just making a point, not fighting with posters) are the best, are just learning what other people has said. It's like jumping on the bandwagon. I am actually the complete opposite of pretentious. Sure I don't like Transformers or Spielberg. That doesn't make me pretentious. It just means I am not a zombie to stupid crap. I love movies like Master of the Flying Guillotine and The Mack. How am I a "film snob" if I love B-movies?

Also I love some of Bergman's films. He is just not my fav. I want movies that piss people off, you know. Speaks out against stuff. Has it's own voice. Movies that are like rebellious towards "the same" that people always watch.

Just saying.

[SpiderBaby]

Originally Posted by Q!

Just saying.

That's like, your opinion man. Just like mine. Chill.

[Q?]

Originally Posted by CassavetesGodard

That's like, your opinion man. Just like mine. Chill.

I'm chilling, I understand what you're saying and I respect that.
Just thought it was funny, kind of an oxymoron...
It's all in friendly jest.

[SpiderBaby]

Originally Posted by Q!

I'm chilling, I understand what you're saying and I respect that.
Just thought it was funny, kind of an oxymoron...
It's all in friendly jest.

I got ya. It's just I got opinions on bad films like everyone else. Some people like the stuff I find silly, and they can't watch the stuff I watch because they don't like to read while watching (that poor person, having to read). You get where I am coming from. I watch people everyday either running each other over at stores because a sale is going on, or believes 100% what they heard on the news, or movies.

Let's just face it, people are zombies, and only getting worse. I refuse to get most of the new technology because it's lazy. If you can't open your car door on your own, you got a hard life ahead of you.

I am a vinyl and cd player person. Not a MP3 player person.
I like to talk to people face to face, not Twitter.
I don't use a cell phone, and I am 21. OH CRAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!! MINDBLOWING!