The Criterion Collection

[Volume11]

Originally Posted by billzfan

I appreciate your opinion and the mere fact that we're talking about a 50 year old film and having a discussion about it is probably what Godard's original intention was. And, you're right, I do love 2001. The difference I see between the two is that there is some structure within the madness. At the end of the film, I still walk away wondering, "What was the monolith?" "Why didn't the aliens make themselves known before he became the star child?" "What's next for the human race after the evolution?"

I don't need answers for a film to be valid. In fact, I actually appreciate it when an artist lets me make up my mind for myself. The problem I had with Pierrot Le Fou versus films like 8 1/2 or 2001 is that the craft of the film didn't leave me caring about the questions at all. I didn't care what happened to the characters and it didn't inspire my imagination or thoughts. In other words, it didn't speak to me.

You mentioned how painters sometimes don't have a structure to their art, but a feeling. I consider Jackson Pollock to be the greatest American painter ever for that reason. His art inspires me to feel and ask questions about what his emotions were when he crafted "Convergence" or "No. 5." I bring this up because a film does not need a traditional Hollywood narrative for me to consider it a great film. It only needs to convey a message that inspires, and for me, Pierrot Le Fou is mute.

I find PLF to be Goddard's love letter to the great author Ferdinand Celine. It surprises me no one in this thread has mentioned the similarities (especially since Celine excerpts are read by the lead himself in the film) between the film and some of Celine's works, including "Guignol's Band" and "Journey to the End of the Night". Both this film and the aforementioned novels feature irreverent male leads who seem fed up with modern French society and act out in absurd and self serving/defeating ways. Troublesome younger female companions who ultimately end up being negative influences on the male lead are also heavily featured in both the film and novels mentioned.

PLF plays like a Celine novel reads in its abrupt and often segmented narrative which could easily be described as a primer for both Goddard and Celine's social/emotional/political views.

I do agree that PLF was devoid of an emotional narrative and that the main characters are very forgettable once the film ends, however, when put into a historically larger French context I can appreciate and accept the film as a classic.

I do believe Celine's novels are much greater than PLF not only in the narrative's more epic level of artistic expression but both in the seething critique of French societal norms and France's involvement in WW1 (Vietnam and Algeria being the examples Goddard went with) but I still think PLF has merit.

[JediFonger]

i respectfully disagree about film having no story.

if art is (in some ways) a reflection of our lives (yes human beans), it will be full of stories. yeah i know human existence may not have stories that have conclusions (yet) nor does it typically go the way we want (happy endings). but the point is we humans still live linearly through story. when we visit friends we haven't seen for a LONG time, they usually ask what has been going on in our lives and we communicate through stories. it's stories that make us angry, cry, happy, euphoric, etc.etc.etc.

thus, if art is to (in any way) move its audiences emotionally, it is through stories. putting certain colors on screen or evokin psychological tricks to try to make us feel something is akin to a magic show, you see it, you are surprised, kind of chuckle at the tricks... but ultimately leave forgetting it and feeling empty. that is, unless the trick itself has a story (it's what makes copperfield successful).

having said all of that, i'm def. not against Godard. intellectually stimulating, always fascinating in its use of film. but it is not as emotional as say... Make Way for Tomorrow? right?

in the end, if i needed to choose between a film like Make Way vs. PLF, i'd choose Make Way because of the way it makes me feel (something).

[fdm]

Can barely wait to see this thread when the Brakhage set comes out.

(Not sure which smiley to put with that sentence either .)

[ShellOilJunior]

Pierrot was Godard's take on the D.W. Griffith maxim that one only needs a guy, girl and a gun to make a film.

That's really what Godard did--- he had no script. Just Belmundo and Karina. Personally, I think the film is a lot of fun.

"Yeahhhhhhhhhhhh, Hollywood, yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

[rickons]

Originally Posted by fdm

(Not sure which smiley to put with that sentence either .)

[stobbart]

Originally Posted by JediFonger

i respectfully disagree about film having no story.


in the end, if i needed to choose between a film like Make Way vs. PLF, i'd choose Make Way because of the way it makes me feel (something).

That is what I am getting at. It is the feelings that watching the movie gave you that really matter in a film, not its story.

For instance take your example, Make Way. If you gave that script to one of your siblings or friends (anyone not a filmmaker) and they made that movie, would it be the same thing? No. It would most likely be crap. And that is because there is so much going on in a film besides the story. Camera angels, film stock, lighting, etc.

And all those things put together are what produce the feelings in you, not the story.

Since this is a CC forum I will use our friend Stan Brakhange. His movie "Passage Through" is 40 minutes long and is roughly 39min 50sec of black with 200 single images spread throughout those 40 minutes. Is that a movie? Yes. Does it have a story? No. But it still produces feelings in the viewer.

One last point. Think back to when you watched one of your favorite movies....what do you remember? The people you were with (if any), where you watched it, and the feelings that if gave you. Then you start to think about the movie and the story and what not. Movie watching is a visceral experience where the act of watching the movie also plays a role in how much you liked it.

All in all im saying, story/plot be damned. A good movie is a good movie regardless.

[JediFonger]

this just got posted on Criterion's facebook fanpage:



^people are saying it's Fish Tank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_Tank_%28film%29

[rickons]

Damn, I imported that from Amazon UK. Oh well.

[kndy]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Do you really think so? I always felt A Bout De Souffle was a bit more accessible then Pierrot Le Fou IMO of course.

Oh yeah, definitely. The reason why is... Anna Karina. You'll notice with a lot of Godard's '60s films, many feel some sort of bond to her. Karina is a big influence (positive and negative) towards Godard during those years which culminates into "Made in the U.S.A." where Godard essentially kills himself (using the characters of the film) twice and of course "Weekend" being the final nail in the coffin for the Godard that many have loved.

Once you watch the Godard/Karina films, "Pierrot Le Fou" is like candy to the Godard fan while at the same time, you feel pain because Godard typically subjects his personal feelings of life and politics into his films.

"A Bout De Souffle" was just the beginning and it's also the film that turned Godard off because people enjoyed it so much. After "A Bout De Souffle", that is when Godard really started to channel himself into his films.

There are also very good special features to watch on that Blu-ray for "Pierrot Le Fou" which are quite important.

Watching the film is one thing...but knowing the behind-the-scenes is important as well. For example, Godard really never prepared a script, he would just write it and many times they actors go off the cuff after meeting with him in the morning and he was notorious for ticking off producers for an uneven shooting schedule. It all depended on how Godard was feeling for the day.

So, in a film like "2 or 3 Things I Know About Her"...you watch the film and then you have a certain feeling towards it. But then you bring the personal side to it of how Godard proposed to the main actress, she rejected, he was pissed and thus you learn what we are watching on film and words used by Godard through the film was directed towards the actress Marina Vlady.

"Pierrot le fou" works in a similar manner that if you watch the film...you get an impression of how you feel towards that film. But then for viewers who watched it and knew about the turmoil going between both he and Karina, "the betrayal sequence" is Godard who feels that being with Karina stole a portion of his life to the final sequence of Belmondo's scene which is also personal.

So, the great thing about these Criterion releases is that these special features definitely set you up and learning what was going on at the time. How certain scenes reflect Godard's personal life at the time and so forth.

And this is what makes his films so interesting is because of these revelations you learn from the audio commentary, scholar commentary and the special features that Criterion includes.

I know there are people on Blu-ray.com who hate special features and feels that special features should not have an effect towards their appreciation towards a film, but I highly recommend people to watch or listen to those special features that come with a Godard release. It may heighten your appreciation to his films.

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

Pierrot was Godard's take on the D.W. Griffith maxim that one only needs a guy, girl and a gun to make a film.

That's really what Godard did--- he had no script. Just Belmundo and Karina. Personally, I think the film is a lot of fun.

"Yeahhhhhhhhhhhh, Hollywood, yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

It's also important to point out that Godard was very much influenced by Samuel Fuller (btw, if you haven't purchased Fuller $75 box set, right now it is on sale for $31 on DeepDiscount, def. worth picking up) and in the beginning of the film, Godard has Samuel Fuller have a part as himself in "Pierrot le fou" (during the party scene) which was very entertaining!

"Film is like a battleground. Love. Hate. Action. Violence. Death. In one word . . . emotion.”

– Samuel Fuller, Pierrot le Fou

Originally Posted by br0k3nglass

I was at the local Best Buy last week and found that they had almost every in-print Criterion BD in stock. Some were way overpriced (Lola Montès was $50), but I found that some of them were actually priced less than the cost on the Criterion site...which is really good, seeing as I'm paying in Canadian dollars at Best Buy and US dollars on the Criterion site, plus I get to avoid shipping and duty charges this way.

Picked up a copy of Chungking Express on blu-ray for about $29 after taxes, which is awesome for a Canadian. It costs about $36 on Amazon.ca.

Well, since the B&N sale didn't happen in the Spring. If they are planning to do it twice a year like last year, hopefully June or July we see that 50% off sale if you do not want to spend that much money.

[keldons]

yeah, thats Fish Tank. Figured it would get a Criterion release since it's an IFC film that got boat loads of acclaim.

[Ceaucescu]

I think both Wasp and Red Road were amazing, but I really didn't feel Fish Tank. At all. The first release I'll skip from CC in a long while, at least on the blu-ray front.

[PowellPressburger]

Originally Posted by Ceaucescu

I think both Wasp and Red Road were amazing, but I really didn't feel Fish Tank. At all. The first release I'll skip from CC in a long while, at least on the blu-ray front.

I think all Criterion releases should be day and date BD releases also... this beign said I still am beating a dead horse, but I think Criterion has better catalog titles that deserve BD treatment before some IFC titles

[Zen_Amako]

I liked Fish Tank, but it's not something I need in HD clarity. I'm happy enough with the DVD.

[fdm]

Originally Posted by rickons

Excellent choice.

[neo_reloaded]

Originally Posted by kndy

...

Watching the film is one thing...but knowing the behind-the-scenes is important as well. For example, Godard really never prepared a script, he would just write it and many times they actors go off the cuff after meeting with him in the morning and he was notorious for ticking off producers for an uneven shooting schedule. It all depended on how Godard was feeling for the day.

So, in a film like "2 or 3 Things I Know About Her"...you watch the film and then you have a certain feeling towards it. But then you bring the personal side to it of how Godard proposed to the main actress, she rejected, he was pissed and thus you learn what we are watching on film and words used by Godard through the film was directed towards the actress Marina Vlady.

"Pierrot le fou" works in a similar manner that if you watch the film...you get an impression of how you feel towards that film. But then for viewers who watched it and knew about the turmoil going between both he and Karina, "the betrayal sequence" is Godard who feels that being with Karina stole a portion of his life to the final sequence of Belmondo's scene which is also personal.

...

Well first, let me say I don't say this as someone who dislikes Godard - quite the opposite in fact, I love everything I've seen by him including Pierrot le fou.

But I disagree with you in regards to his films being interesting because of how they relate to his private life. We only care about Godard because of his films - we can't then say we enjoy his films because of what they say about him as an individual. Circular logic. Knowing how they relate to his private life may give us a greater window into them, a way to begin to understand them - and that's fine. But then, given this window, they need to speak to us on a primal level, past the meta level of the relationship between director and film.

I think Pierrot does have interesting things to say about society and relationships at large, and that is why I enjoy it (besides the visceral cinema qualities it has that make it entertaining at a more surface level). Just knowing what it meant in relation to Godard's life would not be enough to make me like it if it didn't speak personally to me.

[rickons]

Success at lucky Best Buy #3

[capnnarcolepsy]

I would just like to add that having been lurking/randomly posting here since around late november/early dec., it is quite nice seeing people actually discussing the movies themselves, rather than the old "what's good/best/rarest/etc."

and to catch up on an earlier post, my first criterion was chasing amy, many would follow. the one that i would never part with is salo. its the reissued version, but just owning the movie after wanting and searching for it for years have it made owning it all the more worthwhile. now lets get it on blu!

[ccfixx]

Originally Posted by capnnarcolepsy

the one that i would never part with is salo. its the reissued version, but just owning the movie after wanting and searching for it for years have it made owning it all the more worthwhile. now lets get it on blu!

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Finally, someone else in this forum in the right state of mind! I knew I wasn't the only crazy person out there.

If you're not region-free, it's too bad 'cause the BFI blu-ray of "Salò" released in the UK is fantastic with an amazing booklet. Check out the review on this site, if you haven't.

CC

[capnnarcolepsy]

Originally Posted by ccfixx

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Finally, someone else in this forum in the right state of mind! I knew I wasn't the only crazy person out there.

If you're not region-free, it's too bad 'cause the BFI blu-ray of "Salò" is fantastic with an amazing booklet. Check out the review on this site, if you haven't.

CC

Indeed! If i recall, I discovered the movie not long after it had gone out of print and it was already in the over $100 ranges. I feared i would never get a chance to see it, let alone own it. I have seen you get the unfair shake for your enjoyment of Salo. This is the kind of movie that I love Criterion to put out; ones that can affect a person, whether it be visually, mentally, or psychologically. That's why I am super ecstatic about the upcoming Hausu and Antichrist, as, from what I have heard, both movies have an affecting presence about them. I'm also not terribly familiar with Brakhage, but from everything I've read, I'm hoping the vol 1 and 2 collection offers something in this realm as well. Not necessarily perverse or anything, but able to illicit some sort of emotional response. Also, I suppose I will have to look into getting region-free. Salo bluray beckons!

[ccfixx]

Originally Posted by capnnarcolepsy

Also, I suppose I will have to look into getting region-free. Salo bluray beckons!

The Sherwood BDP-5004 on Amazon sells for $158 currently. From my understanding, it's a clone of the Momitsu-899 that's now discontinued. You can read about it in the hardware section of this site, I'm sure.

CC