The Criterion Collection

[jw007]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

It would depend on what two movies you're including in this statement. Sure, Heaven's Gate is being re-appraised but it doesn't change the fact that it was a monumental flop that destroyed the studio that financed it and pretty much put an end to the new Hollywood movement of the 70s. So to call it a "hit" is inaccurate.

The Deer Hunter is the one film that's regarded as his masterpiece, although even that is being reappraised somewhat to the point where it's not as highly regarded as it once was.

Thunderbolt and Lightfoot was a great little film, although how much of that was Cimino's influence and how much of it was Eastwood's is up for debate.

Cimino is a great example of what could have been if his own hubris had not gotten in the way.

Good term to use: hubris. That's what undid him. I guess I meant "hit" in terms of "artistic achievement", not in financial success. So he had 2 artistic "hits" (at least in his opinion).

Still, I've never seen any movie quite like Heaven's Gate, even though there have been plenty of westerns and epics made over the years.

But you basically summed it up right there with your last sentence... of what "could have been" if he hadn't overindulged.

[SilentDawn]

Originally Posted by iScottie

It's so gooddddd. All of Chaplin's films are.

Also you can't have The Godfather 1 and The Godfather 2 as one listing in your Top Favorites.

I have already seen the film, yes it is amazing. I am considering buying every single Criterion of Chaplin's works and having a marathon!

Yeah, I do consider Godfather 1 and 2 to be one epic piece of work but if I had to pick one, it would be number two for me. Pacino.....

[Scottie]

Originally Posted by SilentxStatik24

I have already seen the film, yes it is amazing. I am considering buying every single Criterion of Chaplin's works and having a marathon!

Yeah, I do consider Godfather 1 and 2 to be one epic piece of work but if I had to pick one, it would be number two for me. Pacino.....

I can't wait to get City Lights! Also, I've only seen the first one and I wasn't very enthused. I guess that's because I was like 12, so I should probably rewatch it haha.

[RiFiFi1955]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

just like JW.. I, too, watched Heaven's Gate this weekend for the first time. I am still trying to wrap my head around it as there is certainly a lot to marvel at, but it is also a flawed film - a disjointed narrative and the battle sequence near the end being my biggest complaints.

[Show spoiler]I did really like the scene in the roller rink (that one, of course) and the scene where Jim and Ella dance in a suddenly empty roller rink is, quite simply put, beautiful. remarkable, actually.

..and I found the very last scene to be affecting in a way that I can not quite put my finger on - that could be due to the fact that the battle scene that precedes it bordered on awful.

cinematography, set design, costumes, attention to detail.. all top notch. it certainly is a special movie. I have a feeling that the more I think about it, the more I will feel I liked it, but for the moment, it hovers somewhere between, 'interesting, but mostly as a cinematic curiosity' and 'good, but not great.'

That is the understatement of the year right there...if there were ever a flawed film it is Heaven's Gate...the potential was there but I think Cimino just got in way way over his head and lost track of everything. I am a huge Cimino fan too, not just because of The Deer Hunter but for Year of the Dragon and The Sicilian as well but I think this was no misunderstood classic when it first came out...I think everyone got it pretty much right the first time around.

[bwdowiak]

Originally Posted by jw007

That's a pretty good assessment after seeing this film once, like I did too (this past weekend). I have to agree with you about the terrible/awful battle scene toward the end. It was just too long. I really didn't even see the point of stretching it out so much like that.

No question, the various dance scenes in the film are the highlight for me, especially the very early scene in the first 10-20 minutes of the film. That was absolutely breathtaking.

I think the strength of Kris Kristofferson, Chris Walken and Jeff Bridges' acting is what makes this film so memorable too. These characters the actors play are unforgettable in a strange sort of way. I don't really like Walken's character as he is ambiguous in a way, just like John Hurt's character (who I saw as "weak" but neither good or evil - he existed in the "grey" zone). I think, in the end, as "bad ass" as Walken's character was, he wasn't truly an evil character (compared to the real evil men in the film). There is a certain genuine radiance coming from Kristofferson though that I love. I think its his finest film by far.

The more I think about it, the more I love Heaven's Gate. This film truly grows on you. You need to let it sink in and then you realize just how strong the characters in the film are. I feel like they could have easily existed back in the late 19th century. Easily.

yes, Walken's character was a bit under - established. I wasn't really sure who he was or on which side of the fence he stood until more towards the end of the movie. even then, I think reading some of the reviews of the film have first now confirmed for me that he was supposed to be Jim's 'friend.' ...and the John Hurt character.. seemingly unnecessary outside of his speech at the graduation where his drunkenness and carefree disposition are a contrast to what the Joseph Cotten character speaks about - the duty of the graduates to 'cultivate the uncultivated'

[RiFiFi1955]

Originally Posted by SilentxStatik24

I have already seen the film, yes it is amazing. I am considering buying every single Criterion of Chaplin's works and having a marathon!

Yeah, I do consider Godfather 1 and 2 to be one epic piece of work but if I had to pick one, it would be number two for me. Pacino.....

I stand buy you SilentxStatik24....Whenever anyone asks me what my top 5 favorite films are I always put The Godfather Part 1 & 2 is one slot...cheating it may be but I can't choose between them and I have to save slots for the other 4 favorites right?

[SilentDawn]

Originally Posted by iScottie

I can't wait to get City Lights! Also, I've only seen the first one and I wasn't very enthused. I guess that's because I was like 12, so I should probably rewatch it haha.

You haven't seen the second Godfather? See it now!!!!

Originally Posted by RiFiFi1955

I stand buy you SilentxStatik24....Whenever anyone asks me what my top 5 favorite films are I always put The Godfather Part 1 & 2 is one slot...cheating it may be but I can't choose between them and I have to save slots for the other 4 favorites right?

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by octagon

I'm sorry I'm afraid I can't see them right now. Or, you know, ever.

And that creepy neighbor lady who can see and hear them gets her hair done on Mondays so she won't be able to do that medium thing until the chemicals wear off (apparenlty they block her phantastmic receptors or some such thing...I think she just wants the full day off instead of just the couple hours for the hair appointment).

A swing and a miss.

[jw007]

Originally Posted by RiFiFi1955

That is the understatement of the year right there...if there were ever a flawed film it is Heaven's Gate...the potential was there but I think Cimino just got in way way over his head and lost track of everything. I am a huge Cimino fan too, not just because of The Deer Hunter but for Year of the Dragon and The Sicilian as well but I think this was no misunderstood classic when it first came out...I think everyone got it pretty much right the first time around.

But what if it really is "misunderstood" and not just flawed?

Maybe the term "flaw" is purely subjective?

Maybe the film and story was supposed to be overindulging and bloated and slow-moving. Perhaps Cimino wanted to make a film that was about "immersion" and character study rather than conventional story and action. It could be an art film combined with a western (or anti-western). It might be the only "arthouse anti-western" of its kind. Most "arthouse" films of course don't require 44 million dollars for production, but this one was a rare exception perhaps. People then should look at this film in a different light, as an unusually indulging epic arthouse anti-western as opposed to comparing it to other historical/period piece/westerns of its kind and time. Does this make any sense?

[jw007]

I suppose Heaven's Gate is more than just misunderstood and is indeed flawed beyond belief, as here is a good, short review I just found online: http://letterboxd.com/cappie/film/heavens-gate/

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by jw007

I suppose Heaven's Gate is more than just misunderstood and is indeed flawed beyond belief, as here is a good, short review I just found online: http://letterboxd.com/cappie/film/heavens-gate/

Heaven's Gate is . I love it all, JW. Is it indulgent and misshapen and herky-jerky at times? Yes. But the most interesting movies do not conform to convention.

[jw007]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

yes, Walken's character was a bit under - established. I wasn't really sure who he was or on which side of the fence he stood until more towards the end of the movie. even then, I think reading some of the reviews of the film have first now confirmed for me that he was supposed to be Jim's 'friend.' ...and the John Hurt character.. seemingly unnecessary outside of his speech at the graduation where his drunkenness and carefree disposition are a contrast to what the Joseph Cotten character speaks about - the duty of the graduates to 'cultivate the uncultivated'

I found John Hurt's character to be extraordinarily complex! This is why this film seems rewatchable to me now! The characters are so complex and ambiguous (neither good nor evil) that it makes me more intrigued on exactly "who" they are! When characters aren't easily defined, it makes for mystery and intrigue at least for me. When characters are black and white (in terms of good and bad), that is boring. I like films with characters that are hard to read or understand. It just makes me want to investigate them further.

This film, Heaven's Gate, is also visionary (for today) in that the film is based on the true events surrounding the Johnson County War where it was the first and only time (in American history) where white people were killing white people (outside of the Civil War) rather than Native Americans. I could see something like this happening again today with the Republicans and Democrats (or liberals vs. conservatives) in that it might come down to another "civil" war based on political differences.

I'm starting to see this film as brilliant now suddenly.

[jw007]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Heaven's Gate is . I love it all, JW. Is it indulgent and misshapen and herky-jerky at times? Yes. But the most interesting movies do not conform to convention.

You are forever cool for seeing this movie as "most interesting". You have sealed your coolness in my book.

[smoss469]

Originally Posted by iScottie

I can't wait to get City Lights! Also, I've only seen the first one and I wasn't very enthused. I guess that's because I was like 12, so I should probably rewatch it haha.

City Light's was my first complete Chaplin experience and I really enjoyed it. I thought it had a great message to present and I loved the ending.

[TheDot]

This just arrived! Considering I am UK based, that's pretty impressive!

Can't wait to watch it again....film of 2013 so far for me...

[Show spoiler]

[Judex]

Originally Posted by TheDot

This just arrived! Considering I am UK based, that's pretty impressive!

Can't wait to watch it again....film of 2013 so far for me...

[Show spoiler]

dvdworldusa?

[TheDot]

Originally Posted by Judex

dvdworldusa?

Movietyme. Shipped on the 30th.

Oh and Dual Format releases are here, for anyone that cares.....

[Show spoiler]

[bwdowiak]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Heaven's Gate is . I love it all, JW. Is it indulgent and misshapen and herky-jerky at times? Yes. But the most interesting movies do not conform to convention.

certainly. it gives film fans something to talk about.

Originally Posted by jw007

I found John Hurt's character to be extraordinarily complex! This is why this film seems rewatchable to me now! The characters are so complex and ambiguous (neither good nor evil) that it makes me more intrigued on exactly "who" they are! When characters aren't easily defined, it makes for mystery and intrigue at least for me. When characters are black and white (in terms of good and bad), that is boring. I like films with characters that are hard to read or understand. It just makes me want to investigate them further.

This film, Heaven's Gate, is also visionary (for today) in that the film is based on the true events surrounding the Johnson County War where it was the first and only time (in American history) where white people were killing white people (outside of the Civil War) rather than Native Americans. I could see something like this happening again today with the Republicans and Democrats (or liberals vs. conservatives) in that it might come down to another "civil" war based on political differences.

I'm starting to see this film as brilliant now suddenly.

I feel that way about Walken's character. Maybe the film has answers that happened to escape me upon first viewing. Hurt was in 3 scenes, I believe, and I'm not sure what his purpose was. I'm not sure the film can ever answer that for me now matter how many times I see it - certainly not in a black and white fashion and I fear not in an more abstract way either. If you have any theories, though, I'd love to hear them.

Some reviewers say that the Harvard scene was pointless. I see it as absolutely essential, however, so there you go...

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by jw007

Cimino might fall into the "world's greatest one (or two) hit wonder director" and that would be a respectable title for him.

If there's a spot for "world's greatest one hit wonder director", I'd say it's occupied by Charles Laughton, for The Night of the Hunter.

[mrjohnnyb]

Originally Posted by iScottie

Cléo from 5 to 7 is probably my favorite French New Wave film. I caught it on TCM a few weeks ago and I absolutely adored it.

So far we've watched half a dozen Lumière shorts, A Trip to the Moon (1929), The Gold Rush (1925), The 400 Blows (1959), Sunrise (1927), The Graduate (1967), The intro of The Wizard of Oz (1939), Man with a Movie Camera (1928), A Movie (1958), Mongoloid (1978), and Koyaanisqatsi (1982).

I had seen The Gold Rush and The 400 Blows before so analyzing them with knowledge beforehand helped me grasp the bigger picture. Otherwise, the others were all new to me (Sunrise and The Graduate became two of my favorites of all time) and due to my interest in the Lumière films, I went the extra step and watched 50+ on my own.

We still have to watch excerpts from The Maltese Falcon (more than likely the intro, I've seen it before), Citizen Kane (never seen it), Suspense (never seen it), excerpts from The Birth of a Nation (never seen it), and Rope (I saw this before but I didn't really like it. Hopefully my opinion changes on a rewatch), and The Wrong Man.

It's a cool class and I've befriended my professor. He also shares a passion for Criterion and many other films that I admire. I wish I could take more classes but my school has them scheduled in weird ways, such as at like 8-9 P.M. up north in the city. I'm not doing that so I more than likely won't have any next semester.

Hey iScottie,

I purchased the region-free M.o.C. blu-ray of Sunrise a couple of months ago. It is one of my best blind purchases ever. I highly recommend it!