The Criterion Collection

[bwdowiak]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

I just had this discussion on another thread. I personally don't think anybody is a snob for PREFERRING subtitles over dubs, for whatever reason, however, there has always seemed to be a general air of snobbery by subtitle lovers towards those who prefer watching films dubbed, as if watching subtitled films are more "pure". No matter what though, it all boils down to the fact that if you are unable to understand the language(s) being spoken in the film and have to rely on somebody else's interpretation, whether it be dubs or subtitles, it's still a compromise and often the subs are just as inaccurate as dubs.

yes.. that was you and I who had that convo on this thread, I would say that watching subtitles films vs. dubbed films is definitely more 'pure.' You would call me a snob. that's ok. I'll live with that. Been called worse.

[WonderWeasel]

Originally Posted by pedromvu

There is also a lot of the Italian films from the 60's, not sure when it ended, while some of them are dubbed with a lot of precision, others sound weird even when they are just re-recording their own Italian language, i guess it was mostly a limitation of the technology they used.

BTW i don't remember even noticing it in Das Boot.

'The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly' immediately came to mind. I've always thought it was kind of funny that you can tell the American actors are speaking English, but everyone else is dubbed. They did a very good job synching, though.

Does anyone happen to know what language Kinski spoke while filming 'For A Few Dollars More'?

[pedromvu]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

yes.. that was you and I who had that convo on this thread, I would say that watching subtitles films vs. dubbed films is definitely more 'pure.' You would call me a snob. that's ok. I'll live with that. Been called worse.

I agree, maybe technically "watching it subtitled" is the same, but the audio is part of experiencing a film, and i think the voices are an important part of the acting so on the whole the experience is more like the director intended, unless it was originally dubbed like those Italian films.

[blu-bry]

Originally Posted by pedromvu

There is also a lot of the Italian films from the 60's, not sure when it ended, while some of them are dubbed with a lot of precision, others sound weird even when they are just re-recording their own Italian language, i guess it was mostly a limitation of the technology they used.

BTW i don't remember even noticing it in Das Boot.

Funny, I just watched La Strada (from TCM on my DVR) last night. This is exactly one of those instances where the original voice actors dub is often a bit off. Great movie though!

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by pedromvu

I agree, maybe technically "watching it subtitled" is the same, but the audio is part of experiencing a film, and i think the voices are an important part of the acting so on the whole the experience is more like the director intended, unless it was originally dubbed like those Italian films.

It's not so much that Italian films are dubbed, per se. They generally recorded no sound on set at all, so the sound for the whole film was made in post. There is no "real" version of some of those films, especially when actors did various language dubs themselves.

Originally Posted by joie

The problem with sub's, no matter how fast you read, is that you may glance away from whatever area of the image you've focused on to read the text, unless you can claim that your peripheral vision is as good as your central vision. Some people may continually focus on the subtitle area and miss what was intended to be the focus of the frame and was, intentionally, where the camera was focused.

I can speed read but I never miss anything the director intended, and I watch most films with subs, whether they are in English or not. I can see how slower readers might have an issue, but that's also why a lot of subs are essentially cliff notes versions of what's being said, so you get the essence of what's being said without as many words. Hence, faster reading.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

yes.. that was you and I who had that convo on this thread, I would say that watching subtitles films vs. dubbed films is definitely more 'pure.' You would call me a snob. that's ok. I'll live with that. Been called worse.

Originally Posted by pedromvu

I agree, maybe technically "watching it subtitled" is the same, but the audio is part of experiencing a film, and i think the voices are an important part of the acting so on the whole the experience is more like the director intended, unless it was originally dubbed like those Italian films.

Here's the thing, I'm not disagreeing with you per se, I'm just trying to get the point across that if you do not speak the language involved and are relying on some other method, be it subtitles or dubbing, you're still not getting the "fullest" experience and may be missing out part of the original intent of the director or writer. Subtitle choices are often made for the sake of brevity, just as dubbing is made to match the movements of the actors mouths, and you end up with a couple of scenarios, either (a) the subtitler has translated verbatim and certain idioms or regional or cultural references are not understood, or (b) the subtitler comes up with changed references to accommodate the intended English speaking audience. Either way, it's a compromise and, as such, I feel there is no right or wrong way to enjoy a compromised experience be it subtitles or dubbing.

[bwdowiak]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

Here's the thing, I'm not disagreeing with you per se, I'm just trying to get the point across that if you do not speak the language involved and are relying on some other method, be it subtitles or dubbing, you're still not getting the "fullest" experience and may be missing out part of the original intent of the director or writer. Subtitle choices are often made for the sake of brevity, just as dubbing is made to match the movements of the actors mouths, and you end up with a couple of scenarios, either (a) the subtitler has translated verbatim and certain idioms or regional or cultural references are not understood, or (b) the subtitler comes up with changed references to accommodate the intended English speaking audience. Either way, it's a compromise and, as such, I feel there is no right or wrong way to enjoy a compromised experience be it subtitles or dubbing.

There is no compromise with subtitles because with subs you are adding something to the experience. With an overdub, you are taking something away - the actors' voices.

[bwdowiak]

I do agree with what you're saying about words lost in translation and not getting the full meaning of idioms, etc. But, as in the theme of a lot of Godard's work, even English to English or French to French is lost.. they are, after all, just words. Do they really express what I feel? I hope so, but I don't know.

[obscurelabel]

Originally Posted by pedromvu

There is also a lot of the Italian films from the 60's, not sure when it ended, while some of them are dubbed with a lot of precision, others sound weird even when they are just re-recording their own Italian language, i guess it was mostly a limitation of the technology they used.

BTW i don't remember even noticing it in Das Boot.

The English dub for Das Boot was noted as being very good back when the film was first released, many newspaper and magazine articles commented on it.

La Dolce Vita had an excellent English dub done (not by any of the original actors AFAIK) when the movie was released by AIP in the 1960s. I really wish that this was available on the Criterion release. Don't know why it's not, maybe the rights to this soundtrack went to MGM when AIP (as Orion) went to them. Drat, MGM also junked a bunch of film and audio materials in the early 1990s so maybe it's gone now. Somebody might have to track down a copy of the two-tape VHS release from Republic, it was on there.

[CHEЯNOБLY!]

DVDBeaver just posted their review of BFI's Roberto Rossellini's The War Trilogy...Criterion has there work cut out if they want to top the PQ of this set: 2013 restorations, nearly maxed out feature sizes on the discs, and most of the average bitrates at about 35mbps, with Paisa averaging nearly 38mbps.

The screen caps are looking great.

[Scottie]

Originally Posted by CHEЯNOБLY!

DVDBeaver just posted their review of BFI's Roberto Rossellini's The War Trilogy...Criterion has there work cut out if they want to top the PQ of this set: 2013 restorations, nearly maxed out feature sizes on the discs, and most of the average bitrates at about 35mbps, with Paisa averaging nearly 38mbps.

The screen caps are looking great.

I feel as if Criterion's release will be superior as they seem to have been working on it for quite some time.

Also, adding to the dubtitles discussion, I really hate dubtitles (aside from cartoons) and I would take subtitles any day of the week.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

There is no compromise with subtitles because with subs you are adding something to the experience. With an overdub, you are taking something away - the actors' voices.

What are you talking about? If you don't speak a word of French and are watching a film made in French and having to rely on subtitles to understand what is being said, it's a compromise. You may still be getting the gist of the film, or even a pretty good understanding but you're still relying on a third party's interpretation of what is being said to understand the dialogue. Are subtitles preferable to dubbing in most cases to many people? Sure. Some people like hearing the actor's voices even if they don't understand what is being said, but it's still a compromise.

[cakefactory]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

There is no compromise with subtitles because with subs you are adding something to the experience. With an overdub, you are taking something away - the actors' voices.

With subtitles in movies that are really dialogue heavy, the subtitles are taking away your attention from the visuals no matter how fast you're reading, especially when the subtitles are long enough to cover a substantial amount of the screen. I prefer subtitles in 98% of cases (the other 2% being silly old Godzilla movies and the like where I am watching them for the cheese factor), but to say they don't take anything away is inaccurate in some cases. A couple movies I had to turn off the subtitles and listen to the dub during certain scenes cause trying to keep up with the subtitles and having them cover up the visuals was too much (Summer Wars's intro scene comes to mind).

[CHEЯNOБLY!]

Originally Posted by iScottie

I feel as if Criterion's release will be superior as they seem to have been working on it for quite some time.

There using the same Italian restoration as a source...Idk what CC would specifically be doing differently to improve. Rome, Open City and Germany Year Zero are looking great and the stats are hard to beat...I would much rather CC put supplements on a separate discs, but whatev. Paisa has some significant scratch issues, but that was the best the Italian restoration could do apparently.

I hope CC's is at least as good, because I don't have region free and this BFI set is apparently a limited edition.

[Scottie]

Having just finished Valerie and Her Week of Wonders, I am rather speechless as to not only its appeal, but what people find redeeming in it.

From all of the positive reviews, I was expecting something fun and surreal, but all I got was something incredibly ridiculous.

[pro-bassoonist]

Sullivan’s Travels Blu-ray REVIEW



The film looks fine, but I wanted it to look as good as Sturges' The Palm Beach Story and Frank Capra's It Happened One Night. There are traces of some built-in sharpening that occasionally pop up here and there.

My actual score is 3.75/5, as it appears that some additional cleanup work has been done. The extras are very nice.

Anyway, this truly is an essential American film to see and own, so consider getting yourself a copy

Pro-B

[SilentDawn]

Originally Posted by iScottie

Having just finished Valerie and Her Week of Wonders, I am rather speechless as to not only its appeal, but what people find redeeming in it.

From all of the positive reviews, I was expecting something fun and surreal, but all I got was something incredibly ridiculous.

[GenPion]

Originally Posted by CHEЯNOБLY!

DVDBeaver just posted their review of BFI's Roberto Rossellini's The War Trilogy...Criterion has there work cut out if they want to top the PQ of this set: 2013 restorations, nearly maxed out feature sizes on the discs, and most of the average bitrates at about 35mbps, with Paisa averaging nearly 38mbps.

The screen caps are looking great.

Thanks for sharing... I doubt Criterion's release will have better presentations than this set. I also doubt it will include the fourth film when it eventually is released in North America. The only downside to this set is it has fewer supplements, though it has some extensive ones anyway.

I will certainly want to pick this set up.

[tama]

Originally Posted by CHEЯNOБLY!

There using the same Italian restoration as a source...Idk what CC would specifically be doing differently to improve. Rome, Open City and Germany Year Zero are looking great and the stats are hard to beat...I would much rather CC put supplements on a separate discs, but whatev. Paisa has some significant scratch issues, but that was the best the Italian restoration could do apparently.

I hope CC's is at least as good, because I don't have region free and this BFI set is apparently a limited edition.

I have mine on pre-order. If the word limited wasn't involved I probably would have held out for an eventual CC release.

I am going to wait out the Carl Theodor Dreyer set though considering I already own CC Master of The House. Great film btw.

[yoyokid8]

Just watched Mulholand Dr. and Criterion has to release this!!! Phenomenal film!