The Criterion Collection

[llj]

Originally Posted by filmmusic

I was wondering: Am i the only one who feels Veronica Lake is one of the worst actresses I' ve ever seen?
She seems so "wooden" to me!
Even when she's not speaking and she is just moving..

No, your opinion has been voiced by MANY critics before. Sorry.

She's not great but she has a certain IT factor and mystique about her. For the record, I feel the same about Marilyn Monroe--I 'get' why she is held in high esteem by many film fans but I'm not too taken with her performances, personally.

That's not to say there aren't 'wooden' actors and actresses I really like watching no matter the movie. I like Jean Seberg, and she was VERY wooden. I like Keanu Reeves.

[bwdowiak]

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

The list is labeled film-noir so those films should not be included. Film-noir implies a stricter definition of the term.

okay, but correct me if I'm wrong... the 'noir' part doesn't necessarily refer to black, like in black and white films... it only refers to the tone of the films.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

of the films that I am familiar with, everything seemed legitimately "noir." niced that they sprayed to all fields here and have a few French and a Kurosawa film on the list. sure is a great list if you're looking for a damn good movie to watch tonight.

how many of these 100 have you seen, Owl? maybe we should place bets.. I'll put the over/under for # of films that Owl has seen from this list at 87.

Close. I've seen 84 of the films on the Paste 100 Best Film Noirs list.

I've seen all of the classic-era noir movies on that list, save for Journey into Fear, but there are a few entries from the 1990s and such that I have not yet seen. I still have not seen State of Grace, Hard Eight, Devil in a Blue Dress, Croupier, Brick, After Dark, My Sweet, Red Rock West, or a few other late entries.

[The Great Owl]

Oh, and, in overall terms, I think that the Paste Magazine 100 Best Film Noirs list does a neat job of including films that capture the "This will not end well." spirit of film noir, even if there are a lot of neo-noir inclusions on the list.

I'm surprised that Sidney Lumet's Before the Devil Knows You're Dead (2007) did not make the list, in fact, since it's a better neo-noir than a lot of the later entries that were listed.

David Lynch's Mulholland Dr. makes sense on a noir list in an offbeat way, and it would make an interesting double feature with Sunset Boulevard.

[Feiereisel]

The introductory paragraphs indicate an understanding of the difference between noir and neo-noir, and save for Chinatown and Blade Runner (#'s 4 and 29), the top thirty spots are period-appropriate.

However, I do agree that lumping noir and neo-noir together is a problematic way to assemble this kind of list.

Consider the internet readership at large, though: despite being a film-related article (or listicle, or whatever) I'm not sure this is primarily intended for specialists--the neo-noir-is-noir convention may be a concession made to include films beyond a bunch of old, black-and-white ones.

Doesn't make it right, conceptually or academically. This is why I miss the Dissolve (as well as a clue to why something like the Dissolve couldn't sustain itself).

[joie]

Criterion only has two film noirs: Ministry of Fear and Ride the Pink Horse.

[Scottie]

Originally Posted by joie

Criterion only has two film noirs: Ministry of Fear and Ride the Pink Horse.

Another thought-provoking post by the man himself.

[mja345]

I would also consider "The Killers", "The Third Man" and "Kiss Me Deadly" film noir. "The Killing" and "Odd Man Out" could be considered noir as well, though I always think of "The Killing" as more of just a pure crime film. "Classe Tous Risques" is another one I'd throw in there. There are probably more in the collection I can't think of off the top of my head.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by joie

Criterion only has two film noirs: Ministry of Fear and Ride the Pink Horse.

Ace in the Hole, Night and the City, The Killing, Sweet Smell of Success, The Third Man, Odd Man Out, and The Killers (1946) are all great examples of classic-era film noir, in my book, and they fit into my definition of the genre quite wonderfully.

The Night of the Hunter is on the fence between noir and horror, as the Paste article suggests. I do not consider it to be 100% film noir by my definition, but I'm always happy to see it ranked highly on noir lists.

Kiss Me Deadly works great as a classic-era noir, although it pushes the genre in a new direction.

Pale Flower is probably best described as a neo-noir, but it captures the noir spirit through and through.

[tallrichard]

Originally Posted by joie

Criterion only has two film noirs: Ministry of Fear and Ride the Pink Horse.

How about:

Ace In the Hole (1951)
The Killers (1946)
The Killing (1956)
Kiss Me Deadly (1955)
Odd Man Out (1947)
Night of the Hunter (1955)
Riot In Cell Block 11 (1954)
Rififi (1955)
Sweet Smell of Success (1957)

They may have more...those are just the Film Noir Blu-rays I have in my Criterion collection...

[Ray Jackson]

Taxi Driver is in my all-time top ten.

...but Taxi Driver is not neo-noir.

[Scottie]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Taxi Driver is is my all-time top ten.

...but Taxi Driver is not neo-noir.

I wouldn't describe it as a full blown neo-noir, but I do think it contains some elements of the genre.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by joie

Criterion only has two film noirs: Ministry of Fear and Ride the Pink Horse.

[filmmusic]

I wanted to ask, have all your B&N sale Blurays been shipped?
I had ordered 4 on July 31.
3 have been shipped but one (The Lady Vanishes) still is processing....

[joie]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Here's the list from the English translation of "A Panorama of American Film Noir:"

Maltese Falcon; This Gun for Hire; Journey into Fear; Murder, My Sweet; Ministry of Fear; Phantom Lady; Mask of Dimitrios; Lady in the Lake; Notorious; Gilda; The Big Sleep; Somewhere in the Night; Dead Reckoning; Ride the Pink Horse; Out of the Past; Dark Passage; Lady from Shanghai; Sorry, Wrong Number; The Big Clock; Chicago Deadline; The Window.

Double Indemnity is classified as a criminal psychology, The Killers as a gangster film, The Naked City as a police documentary.

These and other types of crime films are classified at pages 161 through 163 of Border and Chaumeton's book. Those happen to be the two French critics who discovered film noir. ISBN 978 0 87286 412 2

[pedromvu]

Even so, Notorious has a Criterion dvd , or had

Anyway if you read the wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_noir

The overall agreement is there are around 300 films of the genre, even if there are some discrepancies of opinion from the historians and critics.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by joie

Here's the list from the English translation of "A Panorama of American Film Noir:"

Maltese Falcon; This Gun for Hire; Journey into Fear; Murder, My Sweet; Ministry of Fear; Phantom Lady; Mask of Dimitrios; Lady in the Lake; Notorious; Gilda; The Big Sleep; Somewhere in the Night; Dead Reckoning; Ride the Pink Horse; Out of the Past; Dark Passage; Lady from Shanghai; Sorry, Wrong Number; The Big Clock; Chicago Deadline; The Window.

Double Indemnity is classified as a criminal psychology, The Killers as a gangster film, The Naked City as a police documentary.

These and other types of crime films are classified at pages 161 through 163 of Border and Chaumeton's book. Those happen to be the two French critics who discovered film noir. ISBN 978 0 87286 412 2

Double Indemnity is widely regarded as "Film Noir 101", and I share that opinion.

The TCM Film Noir course that I took online over the past few weeks, though, goes to great lengths to convey that the act of defining film noir as a genre is not an exact science.

I personally think of film noir movies as stories in which the viewer thinks, "This will not end well.", while watching the stories unfold. This is why I do not believe, for example, that Casablanca and On the Waterfront are film noir movies, although Blu-ray.com lists them as such.

The recent Criterion Blu-ray release, Night and the City, is a perfect example of a movie that falls into my personal definition of film noir.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by joie

Here's the list from the English translation of "A Panorama of American Film Noir:"

Maltese Falcon; This Gun for Hire; Journey into Fear; Murder, My Sweet; Ministry of Fear; Phantom Lady; Mask of Dimitrios; Lady in the Lake; Notorious; Gilda; The Big Sleep; Somewhere in the Night; Dead Reckoning; Ride the Pink Horse; Out of the Past; Dark Passage; Lady from Shanghai; Sorry, Wrong Number; The Big Clock; Chicago Deadline; The Window.

Double Indemnity is classified as a criminal psychology, The Killers as a gangster film, The Naked City as a police documentary.

These and other types of crime films are classified at pages 161 through 163 of Border and Chaumeton's book. Those happen to be the two French critics who discovered film noir. ISBN 978 0 87286 412 2

Yes, you've discussed this in the Film Noir thread. They're wrong . I'm not sure why you seem to adhere to their word when the overwhelming amount of other literature published don't agree with such an extremely narrow view of noir.

[jmclick]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

Close. I've seen 84 of the films on the Paste 100 Best Film Noirs list.

I've seen all of the classic-era noir movies on that list, save for Journey into Fear, but there are a few entries from the 1990s and such that I have not yet seen. I still have not seen State of Grace, Hard Eight, Devil in a Blue Dress, Croupier, Brick, After Dark, My Sweet, Red Rock West, or a few other late entries.

I've seen 76 of the films on list, including all the films that I would consider genuine films noir (and the list is mis-titled, I think ... the proper pluralization is films noir, not film noirs).

I think what surprised me the most were some of the omissions, including such worthy contenders as Call Northside 777, The Dark Corner, Dark Passage, The File on Thelma Jordon, The House on 92nd Street, Leave Her to Heaven, My Name is Julia Ross, Phantom Lady, Ruthless, The Street With No Name, The Suspect, Where the Sidewalk Ends ...

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by jmclick

(and the list is mis-titled, I think ... the proper pluralization is films noir, not film noirs).

I usually write "film noir movies" just to be on the safe side.