The Criterion Collection

[AaronJ]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

I like La Notte quite a lot, but the three others you mentioned don't really do anything for me.

I do find myself watching Monica Vitti in those Antonioni films and thinking to myself, "Man...it seems like all she ever does is complain about how unhappy she is, regardless of the movie or the situation. I wish she would stop complaining."

There is an element of what I would consider to be first world "woe is me" sensibility that I find a little off-putting.

Honestly, what do these people really have to complain about?

Ugh, you know I really like you Ray. I do. But whenever people say stuff like "first world problems" or something along those lines, I get so frustrated. Emotional and psychological (not to mention spiritual, if that's your thing) pain comes in many forms and it doesn't discriminate based on net worth or race or gender or country of origin. South Korea has the second highest suicide rate in the world. It's not like Korea is in central Africa or something. And yet ... ?

The idea behind the "complaining" in those films is that the characters are alienated from the world around them. They don't feel a connection with that world or a way to feel relevant. No matter what your condition in life, disconnection can be devastating. It's extremely tough to push forward when it doesn't feel as anything you do matters, or that there's no way to make any sort of link with another human being, or even with an idea or a philosophy. A person can be surrounded by all the wonderful things in the world and look around and see nothing -- because life has become a void.

But to be clear and honest here, I'm a nihilist at heart. So, it may be why I relate to these characters and to their situations so easily.

Anyways, /rant

[ThatOneGuy]

Originally Posted by AaronJ

*snip*

Yup, that is why the trilogy is called The Alienation Trilogy if I'm not mistaken.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by AaronJ

Ugh, you know I really like you Ray. I do. But whenever people say stuff like "first world problems" or something along those lines, I get so frustrated. Emotional and psychological (not to mention spiritual, if that's your thing) pain comes in many forms and it doesn't discriminate based on net worth or race or gender or country of origin. South Korea has the second highest suicide rate in the world. It's not like Korea is in central Africa or something. And yet ... ?

The idea behind the "complaining" in those films is that the characters are alienated from the world around them. They don't feel a connection with that world or a way to feel relevant. No matter what your condition in life, disconnection can be devastating. It's extremely tough to push forward when it doesn't feel as anything you do matters, or that there's no way to make any sort of link with another human being, or even with an idea or a philosophy. A person can be surrounded by all the wonderful things in the world and look around and see nothing -- because life has become a void.

But to be clear and honest here, I'm a nihilist at heart. So, it may be why I relate to these characters and to their situations so easily.

Anyways, /rant

Sure I get all that.

And it's certainly not fair to say that people who aren't struggling materially don't have legitimate emotional problems to deal with--especially in this twisted modern world we live in.

I still get tired of watching Monica Vitti lament how unhappy she is in every Antonioni film she was in.

By the time they got to L'eclisse it had become redundant imo.

...so you can imagine how I felt about Red Desert.

But that's just me.

We all have great filmmakers who we don't relate to for various reasons.

[Marlow27]

I actually really despise the "Why watch well off people talk about feeling empty, when there are poor people in the world" mentality. Frankly, I think it's ****ing stupid, just because there are atrocities in the world doesn't mean that lesser issues can't be important, being well-off doesn't mean you can't have negative feelings to struggle with, doesn't mean you can't struggle with existential issues, or with loneliness or with heartbreak, being well-off doesn't mean you can't be depressed (which wouldn't be a 'lesser issue', it'd be a huge issue and has been explored many times with well-off characters).

If your worldview is so narrow that "Pfft, you people are well-off, you can't have any problems that would be interesting to explore in art", then meh, your loss is all I can say.

[pedromvu]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

When I think back on movies that moved me - City of God, District 9, The Grapes of Wrath, etc - I realize that the plight of the poor and the harsh slum settings intrigue me way more than things like L'avventura. I personally see more significance in watching and reflecting on the suffering in a low-class setting than in the upper class. Might be another reason why I dislike L'avventura - can't connect or care about debonair hotshots on a boat moaning and stuff.

I understand your point, but I don't see it as a problem, after all, there are tons of issues and emotions to deal with in the world, and focusing on the upper class gives us insight into some problems that could not be explored if all movies focused only on the lower class, so in the end we get more variety of themes to think about.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Marlow27

I actually really despise the "Why watch well off people talk about feeling empty, when there are poor people in the world" mentality. Frankly, I think it's ****ing stupid, just because there are atrocities in the world doesn't mean that lesser issues can't be important, being well-off doesn't mean you can't have negative feelings to struggle with, doesn't mean you can't struggle with existential issues, or with loneliness or with heartbreak, being well-off doesn't mean you can't be depressed (which wouldn't be a 'lesser issue', it'd be a huge issue and has been explored many times with well-off characters).

If your worldview is so narrow that "Pfft, you people are well-off, you can't have any problems that would be interesting to explore in art", then meh, your loss is all I can say.

I'm really sorry to hear that.

But I won't insult or disparage your opinion.

...unlike the way you did with mine.

[WonderWeasel]

Originally Posted by llj

I think the blue hue is more a feature of the new restoration than the original prints. There is a lot of debate about this in the Lady Snowblood thread.

I think I'll stay out of that discussion, as it seems to have devolved into caveman grunts lol.

I will say this, though: I thought the blue added to the ambiance of the film, and didn't distract me at all.

[AaronJ]

Originally Posted by John Klein

Yup, that is why the trilogy is called The Alienation Trilogy if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly. And for me, at least, it is one of the best series of films ever, and one with which I can make a true connection unlike most other films.

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Sure I get all that.

And it's certainly not fair to say that people who aren't struggling materially don't have legitimate emotional problems to deal with--especially in this twisted modern world we live in.

I still get tired of watching Monica Vitti lament how unhappy she is in every Antonioni film she was in.

By the time they got to L'eclisse it had become redundant imo.

...so you can imagine how I felt about Red Desert.

But that's just me.

We all have great filmmakers who we don't relate to for various reasons.

Hmm, I'm actually starting to think that my therapist might agree with you. Though, today, she at least agreed with me that there are lots of stupid people in the in the world.

[ThatOneGuy]

Originally Posted by Marlow27

I actually really despise the "Why watch well off people talk about feeling empty, when there are poor people in the world" mentality. Frankly, I think it's ****ing stupid, just because there are atrocities in the world doesn't mean that lesser issues can't be important, being well-off doesn't mean you can't have negative feelings to struggle with, doesn't mean you can't struggle with existential issues, or with loneliness or with heartbreak, being well-off doesn't mean you can't be depressed (which wouldn't be a 'lesser issue', it'd be a huge issue and has been explored many times with well-off characters).

If your worldview is so narrow that "Pfft, you people are well-off, you can't have any problems that would be interesting to explore in art", then meh, your loss is all I can say.

While I'm definitely not so against the "woe is me" aspect of films (I actually rather enjoy movies where I watch someone's life just take a huge dump on them). He is right where it can become too much self pity and it just becomes really annoying.

My issue with L'avventura, they put themselves in those situations and all they do is stand around with lifeless eyes and I'm suppose to feel bad for them. I won't be surprised if the way I was raised has something to do with my dislike of the film though, my mother was not one to feel sorry for you if you put yourself in a situation and you do nothing to try to fix it. No one in the film could of easily get out of their situation and only two people did, one by "disappearing"

[Show spoiler]she kills herself

and the other by running away with someone else.

It is a very good story for what it is and does have deeper meaning beyond what is shown but I can't stand it.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by AaronJ

Exactly. And for me, at least, it is one of the best series of films ever, and one with which I can make a true connection unlike most other films.



Hmm, I'm actually starting to think that my therapist might agree with you. Though, today, she at least agreed with me that there are lots of stupid people in the in the world.

Let me tell you how to handle your therapist Aaron.

[Marlow27]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

I'm really sorry to hear that.

But I won't insult or disparage your opinion.

...unlike the way you did with mine.

It actually wasn't specifically just against yours, Ray, it was in reference to multiple posts over the last couple pages that I think bleed into a larger narrative of film/art criticism which I find troubling. You are definitely on the lower end of that spectrum, but the posts did remind me (in a not as extreme way) of people who take it too far in that direction.

Apologies if you felt insulted.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Marlow27

It actually wasn't specifically just against yours, Ray, it was in reference to multiple posts over the last couple pages that I think bleed into a larger narrative of film/art criticism which I find troubling. You are definitely on the lower end of that spectrum, but the posts did remind me (in a not as extreme way) of people who take it too far in that direction.

Apologies if you felt insulted.

Gotcha.

...I think I'm showing the early signs of menopause.

[CriterionBlues]

Originally Posted by applemac

Highly recommend watching the other Mr. Hulot movies before Playtime to fully understand it

I agree with this, or at least Holiday and Mon Oncle. They work best as a trio.

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

When I think back on movies that moved me - City of God, District 9, The Grapes of Wrath, etc - I realize that the plight of the poor and the harsh slum settings intrigue me way more than things like L'avventura. I personally see more significance in watching and reflecting on the suffering in a low-class setting than in the upper class. Might be another reason why I dislike L'avventura - can't connect or care about debonair hotshots on a boat moaning and stuff.

Originally Posted by AaronJ

Ugh, you know I really like you Ray. I do. But whenever people say stuff like "first world problems" or something along those lines, I get so frustrated. Emotional and psychological (not to mention spiritual, if that's your thing) pain comes in many forms and it doesn't discriminate based on net worth or race or gender or country of origin. South Korea has the second highest suicide rate in the world. It's not like Korea is in central Africa or something. And yet ... ?

The idea behind the "complaining" in those films is that the characters are alienated from the world around them. They don't feel a connection with that world or a way to feel relevant. No matter what your condition in life, disconnection can be devastating. It's extremely tough to push forward when it doesn't feel as anything you do matters, or that there's no way to make any sort of link with another human being, or even with an idea or a philosophy. A person can be surrounded by all the wonderful things in the world and look around and see nothing -- because life has become a void.

But to be clear and honest here, I'm a nihilist at heart. So, it may be why I relate to these characters and to their situations so easily.

Anyways, /rant

Originally Posted by Marlow27

I actually really despise the "Why watch well off people talk about feeling empty, when there are poor people in the world" mentality. Frankly, I think it's ****ing stupid, just because there are atrocities in the world doesn't mean that lesser issues can't be important, being well-off doesn't mean you can't have negative feelings to struggle with, doesn't mean you can't struggle with existential issues, or with loneliness or with heartbreak, being well-off doesn't mean you can't be depressed (which wouldn't be a 'lesser issue', it'd be a huge issue and has been explored many times with well-off characters).

If your worldview is so narrow that "Pfft, you people are well-off, you can't have any problems that would be interesting to explore in art", then meh, your loss is all I can say.

Originally Posted by pedromvu

I understand your point, but I don't see it as a problem, after all, there are tons of issues and emotions to deal with in the world, and focusing on the upper class gives us insight into some problems that could not be explored if all movies focused only on the lower class, so in the end we get more variety of themes to think about.

You guys do make good points, sorry for coming off as one-sided. There are compelling struggles and themes in these types of films too, it is true.

I was struggling to think of a good upper-class narrative I liked, and then I remembered Citizen Kane.

[diskspinner]

Originally Posted by AaronJ

Ugh, you know I really like you Ray. I do. But whenever people say stuff like "first world problems" or something along those lines, I get so frustrated. Emotional and psychological (not to mention spiritual, if that's your thing) pain comes in many forms and it doesn't discriminate based on net worth or race or gender or country of origin. South Korea has the second highest suicide rate in the world. It's not like Korea is in central Africa or something. And yet ... ?

The idea behind the "complaining" in those films is that the characters are alienated from the world around them. They don't feel a connection with that world or a way to feel relevant. No matter what your condition in life, disconnection can be devastating. It's extremely tough to push forward when it doesn't feel as anything you do matters, or that there's no way to make any sort of link with another human being, or even with an idea or a philosophy. A person can be surrounded by all the wonderful things in the world and look around and see nothing -- because life has become a void.

But to be clear and honest here, I'm a nihilist at heart. So, it may be why I relate to these characters and to their situations so easily.

Anyways, /rant

Originally Posted by AaronJ

But yes, hating on Antonioni is utterly unacceptable behavior!

Nice points about not being able to connect etc...but explain us again why is it unacceptable if somebody cannot connect with Antonioni...

[kuro_sawa]

Originally Posted by CriterionBlues

I agree with this, or at least Holiday and Mon Oncle. They work best as a trio.

I think Tati's work stands alone in comedy, as far as visually anyway. His style is so unique it confuses new viewers even today.

[mja345]

There are a lot tales of people in seemingly good fortune who are unhappy/unsettled in the Criterion Collection. "8 1/2", the Antonioni films, "The Leopard", "The Royal Tenenbaums", "Safe", "Belle Du Jour", "Bitter Tears of Petra Von Kant", "The Fisher King", "The Rules of the Game", "Under the Volcano", "Harold and Maude" (the Harold character), "Crumb" (a real life account), etc.

Not to completely disagree with Ray, because there are parts of his sentiments I agree with, but think about how many stories are based around the simple premise of people given plenty of wealth and privilege being unhappy. A lot of Shakesperian stories are based upon that simple premise. "Macbeth" and "Hamlet" in particular. One of the most famous and beloved film series of all-time, "The Godfather", is based upon the unhappiness and disagreements that arise among a family who has the world in its palm, albeit by very violent, dishonest means.

[Ray Jackson]

Poor Monica Vitti.

It's a hard life out there in the African bush.

...just trying to survive.

[Scottie]

omg Ray

[oildude]

Originally Posted by AaronJ

I must admit that I've never seen any Tati. It doesn't strike me as my kind of thing, but having never seen any I guess I really need to give him a chance. I see that they have Playtime on Hulu. So, maybe I'll give it a shot when I get home from the golf dome tomorrow.

But yes, hating on Antonioni is utterly unacceptable behavior!

Having watched all of the M. Hulot films in order, I would recommend starting with either M. Hulot's Holiday or Mon Oncle, and thirdly PlayTime. The first two films will make you appreciate Hulot's background and his knack for getting himself into silly situations. There are so many scenes in these two films that, if they don't actually make me laugh out loud, they astound me with how clever the set up is. Hulot's clumsiness, his relations with others, and his eternal good natured optimism are on full display and I think having them in your memory banks when you watch PlayTime makes that film even more amazing an experience. You know Hulot quite well when he enters the film.

Whatever you do, if you get the box set at some point, take time to watch the supplements, they add so much to the ultimate enjoyment of the films, especially PlayTime, one of the most ambitious and brilliant movies I have ever seen.