The Criterion Collection

[Richard--W]

The collaborations between Joseph von Sternberg and Marlene Dietrich were on the cutting edge of the avant garde between 1930 and 1935. These are stunning films even today -- in their design, in their lighting and editing and direction, in the behavioral and emotional states they explored together. Their collaborations were unapologetically transgressive, rebellious, defiant. There is true greatness in each film. They took cinema further in five years than it had gone since the beginning, before the Hayes Code snapped it back. Until now Morocco, Dishonored, Shanghai Express, Blonde Venus, The Scarlet Empress and The Devil Is a Woman have popped in out and out of print, mostly out, on vhs and poor quality DVD. To get hi-def transfers of their entire Paramount works all in one box is a dream come true. The new 2K scans and digital restorations will be exciting to see. I consider this box-set the bluray event of the year.

Once people have had time to absorb these six films, I predict a Dietrich - von Sternberg renaissance. If you don't know these films, make this box-set a priority. You'll be glad you did.

[MJD64]

Originally Posted by Scottie

Google is sporting a doodle of James Wong Howe today, the wonderful cinematographer of such films like Hud, Seconds, and Sweet Smell of Success.

Amen.

Though I'd be remiss if I didn't mention 30's favorites The Thin Man and Mark of the Vampire.

[Mothravka]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

The collaborations between Joseph von Sternberg and Marlene Dietrich were on the cutting edge of the avant garde between 1930 and 1935.

I hope this is some kind of mistake.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

I've heard that, too. It must be true or some other label would have put it out by now. Criterion has a way of keeping titles out of circulation until they get around to it.

If Criterion has LOST HIGHWAY I wish they'd release it fast before I get any older.

Utter BS. Universal has it. It only took 11 years from theatrical release to DVD, but hey, if someone else had it it would be out by now.

It's this kind of misinformation that clogs up the forums with completely uninformed nonsense. Criterion may well indeed have the title, but 1) it needs a new scan/master, which takes time, and 2) assuming they have it or else it would be out already doesn't explain why Elephant Man isn't out yet either in the US, or The Straight Story, or Inland Empire, bpvecas Criterion does not in fact (at least yet) have all of those.

[malakaheso]

Originally Posted by Mothravka

I hope this is some kind of mistake.

There has been a concerted effort over time to make wild exaggerated claims for the sophistication of Old Hollywood films. I suspect that part of it is an over correction of sorts for what happened in the past when those films went out of favour and were casually dismissed by cinephiles who were more interested in foreign films, especially 'art films'.

That's the broader context, but I think I get where this particular poster is coming from.

I'm going to reserve my judgement of these Dietrich/Sternberg films until I've seen all of the films with decent transfers.

[Richard--W]

I'm surprised there isn't more enthusiasm for the Josef von Sternberg / Marlene Dietrich collaboration.

Originally Posted by Mothravka

I hope this is some kind of mistake.

You do that, Mothravka. Hope it is some kind of mistake.

Originally Posted by malakaheso

There has been a concerted effort over time to make wild exaggerated claims for the sophistication of Old Hollywood films. I suspect that part of it is an over correction of sorts for what happened in the past when those films went out of favour and were casually dismissed by cinephiles who were more interested in foreign films, especially 'art films'.

That's the broader context, but I think I get where this particular poster is coming from.

I'm going to reserve my judgement of these Dietrich/Sternberg films until I've seen all of the films with decent transfers.

Yes, reserve judgment until you've seen them, but I don't understand the dour attitude in general. Nor do I understand this inclination to trivialize.

I don't know anything about a concerted effort to "make wild exaggerated claims for the sophistication of old Hollywood films." Many vintage Hollywood films were in fact sophisticated. Some were works of art. That's fact, not hyperbole. That does not imply superiority to films from other countries.

I haven't made any wild exaggerated claims. My praise for the Sternberg / Dietrich collaboration is considered and sincere and would be the same if they had made the six films in Berlin or Paris. I'm particularly interested in the transition to sound era and the early 1930s, particularly the films from France and Germany during this time, and from Hollywood. I'm not a movie historian or a film critic, and I always have to look up the trivia, but I know what I see and I bring my own education and experience in drama and production to a lifetime of watching, appreciating and studying film.

Josef von Sternberg was a European recognized as a director and an artist before he came to Hollywood. He brought a European sensibility and a sophisticated intellect to the films he made at Paramount. I don't mean in a hoity-toity way; he was down-to-earth in the productions he mounted and in the stories he told. But he was also a dramatist, and a dramatist must dramatize or find another line of work. The stories he was telling were not stories Americans would have thought of, or would have told in the way Sternberg told them. To my mind, if Josef von Sternberg was not an artist, nobody is.

I place Sternberg in the same class as Lang, Murnau, Pabst, Dreyer, Duvivier, Gance, Renoir to name a few, for example. All legitimate artists who made fine and important films in their time.

[senseabove]

Originally Posted by Mothravka

I hope this is some kind of mistake.

Originally Posted by malakaheso

There has been a concerted effort over time to make wild exaggerated claims for the sophistication of Old Hollywood films. I suspect that part of it is an over correction of sorts for what happened in the past when those films went out of favour and were casually dismissed by cinephiles who were more interested in foreign films, especially 'art films'.

That's the broader context, but I think I get where this particular poster is coming from.

I'm going to reserve my judgement of these Dietrich/Sternberg films until I've seen all of the films with decent transfers.

While "cutting edge" may be an exaggeration, you can certainly sense Sternberg becoming less and less focused on conveying a compelling, coherent story, so that by the time he gets to Scarlett Empress, he is as enamored of playing with myriad light sources and obstructions and their interaction with flesh and fabric as he is with anything else. That is a typical feature of the avant garde film that arose 10-20 years later, and Empress, with its emotional and perceptual excess, has less in common with, say, the immoral, monetary excess of DeMille's Cleopatra, from the same year, than it does with Meshes of the Afternoon, from nine years later. So sure, saying that DeMille was being consciously "avant-garde" and intentionally laying the groundwork for a non-narrative cinema is probably an exaggeration, but he did point the way, intentionally or not. And as you point out, the folks who, for the next thirty years, championed these works as significant contributions to the medium weren't in or around Hollywood. The reaction to and inheritance from these films is something I've only picked up in passing, though, so I'm looking forward to the supplements on the set for more context!

Originally Posted by Richard--W

I'm surprised there isn't more enthusiasm for the Josef von Sternberg / Marlene Dietrich collaboration.

...

You do that, Mothravka. Hope it is some kind of mistake.

...

Yes, reserve judgment until you've seen them, but I don't understand the dour attitude in general. Nor do I understand this inclination to trivialize.

I don't know anything about a concerted effort to "make wild exaggerated claims for the sophistication of old Hollywood films." Many vintage Hollywood films were in fact sophisticated. Some were works of art. That's fact, not hyperbole. That does not imply superiority to films from other countries.

I haven't made any wild exaggerated claims. My praise for the Sternberg / Dietrich collaboration is considered and sincere and would be the same if they had made the six films in Berlin or Paris. I'm particularly interested in the transition to sound era and the early 1930s, particularly the films from France and Germany during this time, and from Hollywood. I'm not a movie historian or a film critic, and I always have to look up the trivia, but I know what I see and I bring my own education and experience in drama and production to a lifetime of watching, appreciating and studying film.

Josef von Sternberg was a European recognized as a director and an artist before he came to Hollywood. He brought a European sensibility and a sophisticated intellect to the films he made at Paramount. I don't mean in a hoity-toity way; he was down-to-earth in the productions he mounted and in the stories he told. But he was also a dramatist, and a dramatist must dramatize or find another line of work. The stories he was telling were not stories Americans would have thought of, or would have told in the way Sternberg told them. To my mind, if Josef von Sternberg was not an artist, nobody is.

I place Sternberg in the same class as Lang, Murnau, Pabst, Dreyer, Duvivier, Gance, Renoir to name a few, for example. All legitimate artists who made fine and important films in their time.

I don't think folks were opposing the idea that Sternberg is great or trivializing him, just questioning the idea that he is avant garde. I, for one, am incredibly excited about this set, having only seen three of the six, all of which I look forward to revisiting. I started reading a Dietrich biography this morning in anticipation!

[Scottie]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Did you sell your WKW blus, Scottie?

Nope. They won't be sold until remastered versions are released.

[dancerslegs]

Originally Posted by senseabove

I don't think folks were opposing the idea that Sternberg is great or trivializing him, just questioning the idea that he is avant garde.

Yeah, that for me too is where I thought an otherwise excellent post went off the rails. For comparison with other films of the period, L'age D'or, Blood of a Poet, and Limite are avant-garde; Sternberg is not.

That said, I too am thrilled and excited about this release. It's been too many years since these titles hit DVD--and then in inferior presentations--that they seem to be somewhat off of many film buffs' radar.

[mande2013]

There's nothing wrong with appreciating the technical mastery of old guard studio auteurs. The only problem occurs when 'humble craftsmen' like Lubitsch and Jacques Tourneur are used as clubs with which to beat down 'arthouse' figures like Antonioni, Tarkovsky and so on for supposedly having vision but "lacking the technical skill" of their Old Hollywood forebears, which itself is highly debatable. I'm fine with old guard auteurs as long as they're not used as anti-snob snob pawns basically (i.e. "Real cinephiles prefer Hawks to Antonioni", etc.).

If someone thinks Lubitsch is better than Antonioni or (insert some other high profile but sitting duck arthouse impresario), they can go ahead and argue their case, but they may as well state one of the Bronte sisters or Hardy is better than Kafka. If you believe that, fine, but the conservative critical agenda would still be patently obvious.

[Richard--W]

I maintain that Josef von Sternberg was avant garde in his thinking.

Originally Posted by mande2013

There's nothing wrong with appreciating the technical mastery of old guard studio auteurs. The only problem occurs when 'humble craftsmen' like Lubitsch and Jacques Tourneur are used as clubs with which to beat down 'arthouse' figures like Antonioni, Tarkovsky and so on for supposedly having vision but "lacking the technical skill" of their Old Hollywood forebears, which itself is highly debatable. I'm fine with old guard auteurs as long as they're not used as anti-snob snob pawns basically (i.e. "Real cinephiles prefer Hawks to Antonioni", etc.).

If someone thinks Lubitsch is better than Antonioni or (insert some other high profile but sitting duck arthouse impresario), they can go ahead and argue their case, but they may as well state one of the Bronte sisters or Hardy is better than Kafka. If you believe that, fine, but the conservative critical agenda would still be patently obvious.

Hmm. I can't see the sense in comparing Victorian romanticists to a surrealist from the early years of the Weimar Republic. But I might agree that Charlotte remains relevant while Emily's time has passed. Nor can I see the sense in comparing Lubitsh to Antonioni except that more of Antonioni's films are on bluray than Lubitsh's. Personally, I'm an Antonioni completest. My favorite of his films is The Passenger, which in some ways is atypical of his work. The Passenger is one my most memorable moviegoing experiences of the 1970s. I saw it at the Meadowbrook Theater on Long Island, NY three times. I still have the script which was published in paperback and the issues of Sight and Sound, Velvet Light Trap and Film Comment that covered it. I owned the VHS, then I bought the Japanese DVD, then I uprgraded to the Home Vision DVD with Nicholson's commentary, and now I have the bluray which is just lovely.

[mande2013]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

I maintain that Josef von Sternberg was avant garde in his thinking.



Hmm. I can't see the sense in comparing Victorian romanticists to a surrealist from the early years of the Weimar Republic. But I might agree that Charlotte remains relevant while Emily's time has passed. Nor can I see the sense in comparing Lubitsh to Antonioni except that more of Antonioni's films are on bluray than Lubitsh's. Personally, I'm an Antonioni completest. My favorite of his films is The Passenger, which in some ways is atypical of his work. The Passenger is one my most memorable moviegoing experiences of the 1970s. I saw it at the Meadowbrook Theater on Long Island, NY three times. I still have the script which was published in paperback and the issues of Sight and Sound, Velvet Light Trap and Film Comment that covered it. I owned the VHS, then I bought the Japanese DVD, then I uprgraded to the Home Vision DVD with Nicholson's commentary, and now I have the bluray which is just lovely.

Well I wasn't blaming you specifically for valuing one over the other for the wrong reasons or anything, but it's just my impression that in general, there are certain cinephiles who tend to give the benefit of the doubt to old studio auteurs over 'arthouse' directors, due to a Romanticised fixation with the archetype of the "humble craftsman". I could be imagining things, but that's just my impression.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Utter BS. Universal has it. It only took 11 years from theatrical release to DVD, but hey, if someone else had it it would be out by now.

It's this kind of misinformation that clogs up the forums with completely uninformed nonsense. Criterion may well indeed have the title, but 1) it needs a new scan/master, which takes time, and 2) assuming they have it or else it would be out already doesn't explain why Elephant Man isn't out yet either in the US, or The Straight Story, or Inland Empire, bpvecas Criterion does not in fact (at least yet) have all of those.

There are nice ways to be helpful and snipey ways to say the same thing.

You're an abrasive snipe, you know that?

Only well-informed insiders should be allowed to post here.

You assume too much. You have no idea what Criterion owns or doesn't own or which titles have scans and which don't or how long it takes to negotiate this deal or that deal so you shouldn't be accusing others of what you just did.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by mande2013

Well I wasn't blaming you specifically for valuing one over the other for the wrong reasons or anything, but it's just my impression that in general, there are certain cinephiles who tend to give the benefit of the doubt to old studio auteurs over 'arthouse' directors, due to a Romanticised fixation with the archetype of the "humble craftsman". I could be imagining things, but that's just my impression.

Understood, but I wasn't making those judgments, nor do I have those fixations. Nor do I discriminate against the old Hollywood craftsmen. Nor do I discriminate against the "arthouse auteurs."

It's true that Josef von Sternberg was an artist's artist and a craftsman's craftsman who put the studio resources into the service of his storytelling, but first and foremost it's his storytelling that matters. His visual metaphor was purposeful and very acute. That does not invoke comparisons or judgments on others. I don't get why some of you dismiss him. I think he'd rather have made the films with Dietrich on the streets of Europe, but that's besides the point. The films are what they are and what they are is quite remarkable. I hope his work will enjoy a resurgence on bluray.

[nitin]

Shanghai Express is excellent, The Scarlet Empress is very good and I am very much hoping to reconsider my opinion of the others through these new masters.

[BluConniseur]

I want Animal House to get the Criterion treatment.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by nitin

Shanghai Express is excellent, The Scarlet Empress is very good and I am very much hoping to reconsider my opinion of the others through these new masters.

Dietrich dares much, digs deep and aims high in all six films but I think she and von Sternberg reached their peak in Shanghai Express and Blonde Venus (both 1932). When the collaboration ended her career ceases to be of interest. That saloon girl bit wore out its welcome real fast.

[bluenote23]

I too am much looking forward to the Sternberg-Dietrich release. I have all the films on DVD (but haven't yet watched Dishonoured) and have high hopes for the new transfers.

Once you've seen the films, Gaylyn Studler's book, In the Realm of Pleasure might make an interesting read. It is very dense (at least for me, I have a hard time keeping up) but may provide new insights for viewing these films.

[sawdustandtinsel]

On IMDB...

[Show spoiler]

[LPMA]

Originally Posted by sawdustandtinsel

On IMDB...

[Show spoiler]

Reddit says it’s fan-made.

https://amp.reddit.com/r/criterion/c...days_of_being/