Archived: Insiders Thread

[JBlacklow]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

This looks correct...

Awesome! Thanks. Any word on DTS-MA for the PS3?

BTW, I hope SPE considers your time here billable hours, 'cause I know we're laying stuff on you fast and heavy.

[Knight-Errant]

Originally Posted by phloyd

Actually I think it is good to hear that BD PiP will exceed HD DVD PiP in this sense.

While I am already dialed in with a player, I will eventually retire it in favour of one with all the gizmos eventually...

I like that BD is forward thinking - a technology for things to come - not just an HD and capacity add on to the DVD technology...

Exactly. That's what I like too. It's the difference between a format with legs and one that's rushed to market.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

Paidgeek

Seems to me that like The Guardian having only PS3/PC special features, studios realise the 1st gen hardware isnt going to do True PIP. But the PS3 and PC can, along with the 2nd gen BD hardware since they use the newer SOC chips. So would it be a stretch to say that Warner will release their IME style titles onto BD with PS3/PC only statements for PIP until the 2nd gen hardware is out that supports it? Seems right to me. And would be fine as long as the ONLY thing on the discs that doesnt work is the PIP for the older standalones.

Your guess is probably as good as mine here. I do not think WB is of the mindset to target the PS3 for any of their product though.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by JBlacklow

Awesome! Thanks. Any word on DTS-MA for the PS3?

BTW, I hope SPE considers your time here billable hours, 'cause I know we're laying stuff on you fast and heavy.

Sorry, no news at all on this.

Such is the life of being salaried... It is worth it just to keep those spreading nonsense about BD on their toes.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by kjack

While PiP could be done on existing players using our chip via a firmware upgrade, there are two issues. First, player manufacturers prefer to fully support Profile 1.1 or later rather than just a piece of it. Second, Blu-ray PiP on our chip requires a specific revision or later be used; otherwise PiP would always be a rectangular window since luma key data would be ignored. Player manufacturers would rather have a fully-compliant implementation to avoid future problems.

Luma-key, not chroma-key?

Is that a unique feature of BD, or is it common to HD DVD?

If I understand correctly, it would be possible to use the BD "PiP" to overlay the main feature to add text tags that point at objects in the scene.

e.g. Scene trivia
"The director's favorite coffee mug"
"Nick Cage took this CD player home after the shoot"
"Angelina hated this dress"
etc.

Gary

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

The Samsung decoder is based on a Broadcomm chip as far as I know. Even if that chip can decode dual streams, the current generation of players do not have the capability to support other essential functions to achieve PiP.

If the entire G1 isn't capable of PiP, is it likely we'll see titles that exploit it? What will Warner do? Right now, Warner is implying they'll hold off key titles for IME. Is this just an excuse to play favorites with HD DVD?

Originally Posted by paidgeek

The Decent was created with a second complete title on the disc with the PiP image pre-composited.

I thought so. Their is some FUD that it affected BANDWIDTH, which isn't the case. It wasn't a secondary full video scream.

Gary

[Rio]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

If I understand correctly, it would be possible to use the BD "PiP" to overlay the main feature to add text tags that point at objects in the scene.

Isn't it easier to do such things by subtitle animation or BD-J graphics?

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Rio

Isn't it easier to do such things by subtitle animation or BD-J graphics?

BD-J graphics maybe. I was thinking of something a bit fancy. And it could be accomplished with traditional skills rather than requiring programmers to get involved.

Gary

[Jack Torrance]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

Your guess is probably as good as mine here. I do not think WB is of the mindset to target the PS3 for any of their product though.

Paidgeek:

Sorry to be the dim bulb of the bunch here, but are you suggesting that the WB "IME" HD-DVD titles like Batman Begins, won't be on BD? Just trying to clarify what you are saying

Thanks for posting here and giving us the real scoop!

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by Jack Torrance

Paidgeek:

Sorry to be the dim bulb of the bunch here, but are you suggesting that the WB "IME" HD-DVD titles like Batman Begins, won't be on BD? Just trying to clarify what you are saying

I think his response was towards Disney's The Guardian specifically authored to include a portion of interactivity that can only be used with the PS3 or PC/Mac BD drives, then suggesting Warner may not want to do the exact same thing for the PS3.

I remember the Japanese report that said the PS3 developer had cranked up the video decoding capability of the Cell that it was feeding TWO high bandwith AVC video using six out of seven cores and it passes with flying colors. So for the PS3 to be able to get to 1.1 is not that troublesome.

Maybe Platform 1.1 also needs the mandatory Cell chip on its board.

By the way, sorry to everybody. This is supposed to be the Insider Thread - questions only.


fuad

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by Jack Torrance

Paidgeek:

Sorry to be the dim bulb of the bunch here, but are you suggesting that the WB "IME" HD-DVD titles like Batman Begins, won't be on BD? Just trying to clarify what you are saying

Thanks for posting here and giving us the real scoop!

I really don't know what WB will do. They may have to reconsider their desire for complete parity between their HD-DVD and BD releases.

I have to tell you, I looked at several EU HD-DVD releases today and they are in serious bit starvation, probably due to the additional audio tracks. HD-DVD manages a pretty decent picture with most of their US releases, but the EU versions are not good at all. This seems much more important than any added value.

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

I have to tell you, I looked at several EU HD-DVD releases today and they are in serious bit starvation, probably due to the additional audio tracks. HD-DVD manages a pretty decent picture with most of their US releases, but the EU versions are not good at all.

Intriguing! I hope that the Euro BDs are in good shape...

[Jack Torrance]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

I really don't know what WB will do. They may have to reconsider their desire for complete parity between their HD-DVD and BD releases.

I have to tell you, I looked at several EU HD-DVD releases today and they are in serious bit starvation, probably due to the additional audio tracks. HD-DVD manages a pretty decent picture with most of their US releases, but the EU versions are not good at all. This seems much more important than any added value.

Thanks Write & PaidGeek... Will just have to wait and see what WB offers in the future.

As to the "IME", personally I don't give a flying pair of dingo's kidneys about "picture in picture" on my BD, I'm intrigued, but is it neccessary?

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

By the way, sorry to everybody. This is supposed to be the Insider Thread - questions only.

fuad, this is not the the A-man Video Show thread, so don't feel sorry. While members shouldn't ramble-on in 10-page soliloquies of their opinions, I hope the more conversational nature of this insider's thread leads to a better discussion and learning than the one you get with the "Say your question, or otherwise shut up!" approach

[Chris Beveridge]

Originally Posted by Jack Torrance

Thanks Write & PaidGeek... Will just have to wait and see what WB offers in the future.

As to the "IME", personally I don't give a flying pair of dingo's kidneys about "picture in picture" on my BD, I'm intrigued, but is it neccessary?

It is necessary in the long run. In the short term, new format launches like this are supposed to aim at the hardcore, the picture and audio philes. The special extras, line IME, tend to come a bit later or maybe one or two early on in order to excite and test.

Where the problem lays is that when a format launches of this size, it's typically expensive and the buyers are those who understand, well, economics and why players will cost about a grand. They understand what kind of titles are released at first - shiny movies that show off the PQ and AQ.

But for HD DVD, they shot in with such a low price that it brought in a large number of folks who normally aren't of the bleeding edge adopter mentality. So while they are loving the PQ and AQ, they also want all of these shiny extras that they're used to on DVD. They don't understand the methodology that's used in title selection and so forth. They also tend to lack the patience that the bleeding edge types have because they're not used to it. Add in the fact that to truly take advantage of all capabilities a first gen machine will never do it, they dislike being caught in a cycle of needing to get a new player a year later.

Look at the HD DVD crowds response to the A2 and XA2. Mostly the same features of the first gen, but swapped out a bit and a price hike. Then there's the spring model announced at CES. That's two players of three announced with price increases.

I don't WANT to pay a lot of money for first or second gen players but I understand it's my choice and I understand the dynamics of it. But look at how 2nd gen will go on the BD side. Players came in from 1500 to 1000 in first gen (discounting PS3). Second gen has Sammsung looking at what, 899 or 799? Street will be down to lower than that as well with sales and promotions. When Panasonic, Pioneer and Sony get their more commercially viable models in the queue they will drop as well. Pioneer is announcing their new internal BD-ROM drive with the intent of pricing it in a consumer friendly model. Their first one was clearly aimed at the professional level.

[Chris Beveridge]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

fuad, this is not the the A-man Video Show thread, so don't feel sorry. While members shouldn't ramble-on in 10-page soliloquies of their opinions, I hope the more conversational nature of this insider's thread leads to a better discussion and learning than the one you get with the "Say your question, or otherwise shut up!" approach

Indeed, we don't have members trying to play "gotcha!" questions here.

[Blackraven]

Originally Posted by phloyd

Intriguing! I hope that the Euro BDs are in good shape...

I'm hearing good reports that Emily Rose and Hostel have nice quality (ask Maxpower and Thunderhawk)

[kjack]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Luma-key, not chroma-key?

Yes, luma key, since it is easier to implement in the player. Basically you just have to look for a Y value range below black (for example 0-10, with black = 16). If Y is 0-10, then primary video is seen; otherwise secondary video. I looked at being able to convey true alpha data (rather than a simple switch) to enable smooth edge blending, but it didn't get adopted. I also looked at conveying an alpha plane along with the secondary video, but that was also rejected as there was no standard for doing that.

As a side note, the BD requirement for the main and secondary video to match being progressive/interlaced was done to keep decoder costs as low as possible in the event a BD-only decoder was ever justified to do.

Is that a unique feature of BD, or is it common to HD DVD?

HD DVD uses the same luma-key technique.

[GoldenRedux]

Is there a specific email address or telephone number where we can contact Sony (or any of the other BD studios) to request certain titles we would like to see on Blu-ray?

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by kjack

Yes, luma key, since it is easier to implement in the player. Basically you just have to look for a Y value range below black (for example 0-10, with black = 16). If Y is 0-10, then primary video is seen; otherwise secondary video.

Ah, that's cool. Below black. Clever.

Originally Posted by kjack

I looked at being able to convey true alpha data (rather than a simple switch) to enable smooth edge blending, but it didn't get adopted. I also looked at conveying an alpha plane along with the secondary video, but that was also rejected as there was no standard for doing that.

Too bad.

Originally Posted by kjack

As a side note, the BD requirement for the main and secondary video to match being progressive/interlaced was done to keep decoder costs as low as possible in the event a BD-only decoder was ever justified to do.

Well, I think the side effect of this rule is that BD forces the maximum quality decoding to be possible. Any interlace stuff must be pre-processed into 24p for the secondary with film primary. That is a major positive.

HD DVD has a big problem ever supporting 24p well since an interlaced video source PiP makes a real mess of the situation (without 120Hz support ).

I note that rdjam was once again trying to make a big deal out of BD requiring interlace encoding for video (25p/50p). But, that is a completely different situation AND it blends well with video sourced PiP. In reality, I would expect HD DVD to always decode interlaced for the same reason.

Gary