Archived: Insiders Thread

[Seretur]

Originally Posted by Frode

I'll let you in a little secret: 120Hz and 100Hz displays show 24fps content at.. 24fps. Digital displays (with the exception of DLP) don't have a refresh in the traditional sense of the word, as pixels are "always on" and don't need a refresh cycle to maintain that. Instead the refresh rate can in principle be completely asynchronous (this is not quite how it works, but for simplicity's sake bear with me) - a simple signal telling the display circuitry to check the frame buffer for new data and update the image being shown. The difference in 100/120 "Hz" TVs is in how the internal logic handles the input signal. Some of them actually have a mode that will interpolate extra frames beyond the original 24fps, leading to smoother and clearer motion. This is usually only 1:1 frame however (so 48fps if the source is 24fps) - if you managed to feed a 120 "Hz" LCD a true 120fps signal, hardly any of them would have the pixel response time that's fast enough to properly display it. DLP is currently the one exception to that.

Thank you, Frode! This is way above anything I was able to learn online, or from the Sony Style dealer. And this has made me feel a lot better about my purchase.

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by Frode

I'll let you in a little secret: 120Hz and 100Hz displays show 24fps content at.. 24fps. Digital displays (with the exception of DLP) don't have a refresh in the traditional sense of the word

I don't believe that this is entirely true.

There are a couple of effects that can make this problematic.

For LCDs they need to invert the field to keep the overall drive to the LC balanced. So you can imagine that a 120Hz update is 60 Hz, doubling each input frame - once in a positive drive and once in a negative drive. Since the essential input rate is 60Hz (if it was 120 independent frames you could end up with an imbalance overall which is bad and results in image sticking) which makes pulldown a necessity.

I imagine that they could come up with a system that does 5:1 for 24 and still results in a balanced 120 Hz signal ... this is probably what is done on the 'true 24' displays today.

You could imagine that they might slow down the signal and simply double 24 to 48 and be done with it - this is also a bad idea. Firstly the reversals for the balancing need to happen as rapidly as possible for best effect - slowing down the reversals to 48 Hz is not the right answer. Secondly, calibrations done with a 120 Hz update are not necessarily valid at a 48 Hz display rate due to a number of timing factors.

In any case, the assumption that LCD and LCoS systems can simply display any rate due to non-traditional update methods is not correct. The timings in these systems are subject to constraints for proper or optimal performance.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Azumi

Penton,
I've read that quote myself, and I have a question that has been bugging me for the past couple of days:

How can they be so sure that in a few years, these so-called "new media profits" will amount to something much more significant than a handful of peanuts?....................................

They don’t know for sure, they’re guessing and speculating.

The general feeling amongst the membership is that they got burned on their share of DVD profits over the past years and they don’t want to miss the boat on digital downloads, EST (electronic sell-thru), etc. if indeed these do take off in five to ten years.

Right now, both sides don’t even feel like speaking to each other. A wild card would be if, in the meantime, the producers reach a deal with the directors (DGA) before their contract expires. That would severely alter the bargaining position and leverage of the writers.

[Leon]

this trend will be so bad, as ps3 gets great games this holiday season, ps3 owners will not buy so many blu-ray movies

Those cheap players are not good, and thoshiba is really pushing it hard now.


Its time to show this to the folks on top, and I thought blu-ray was, panasonic, hiatchi, sony, pioneer, samsung. Why aint they pushing the format ?

Tvpredictons on this topic, 'sony says that ps3 will sell lots of more than those standalones, but so many good games this holiday, what do you do with your blu-ray's then ?

http://www.tvpredictions.com/askswanni110507.htm

[Chris Beveridge]

Gee, you can't do both? I must be well skilled then as I manage to both game and watch movies on my player. And that's without including regular TV watching as well with a family of four. I should write a book on time management.

[Leon]

Chris Beveridge lets be honest here. The ps3 is in fact an gaming console. You have no Idea how many people come up to me and say they dont want a gaming console as their movie player. Without even trying it, they say this.

This is mostly adults, say 30+. Young people attend much more the ps3 and they get the whole package.

And when I have had friends over or taken the ps3 with me to showcase it, they are ofcourse impressed. This is the problem.

[L or S of Perfect?]

One activity is not mutually exclusive to the other. People who enjoy games also are likely to enjoy watching movies. It's gamers that are more likely to be willing to spend money on this hi-def stuff than the "average consumer".

[Chris Beveridge]

Originally Posted by Leon

Chris Beveridge lets be honest here. The ps3 is in fact an gaming console. You have no Idea how many people come up to me and say they dont want a gaming console as their movie player. Without even trying it, they say this.

This is mostly adults, say 30+. Young people attend much more the ps3 and they get the whole package.

And when I have had friends over or taken the ps3 with me to showcase it, they are ofcourse impressed. This is the problem.

And this has what to do with what you were talking about how? The argument that's been used for a year now is that when the PS3 gets good games, movie viewing will suffer. Well, why hasn't it suffered if the people who own a PS3 owned a PS2? Or the 360 owners who have an HD DVD add on? It's all a shell game to try and paint a bad situation. Don't fall for it.

For the record, I'm 36, use a PS3 as my main system. My parents are in their late 60's and they use a PS3 as their main movie player as well. Not the norm to be sure, but still a reality.

[JAG1977]

Originally Posted by Leon

this trend will be so bad, as ps3 gets great games this holiday season, ps3 owners will not buy so many blu-ray movies

Those cheap players are not good, and thoshiba is really pushing it hard now.


Its time to show this to the folks on top, and I thought blu-ray was, panasonic, hiatchi, sony, pioneer, samsung. Why aint they pushing the format ?

Tvpredictons on this topic, 'sony says that ps3 will sell lots of more than those standalones, but so many good games this holiday, what do you do with your blu-ray's then ?

http://www.tvpredictions.com/askswanni110507.htm

Well I guess they have confidence in their medium-long term business plan for Blu-ray, or have given up, it's one or the other.

Shunting sub $100 players out of the door is not a sign of confidence in your format.

Sure it would be nice if they spilled the beans here and revealed their Christmas promotion/marketing plans, but I'm guessing they are assessing the impact of $100 HD-DVD players, and how to best counter it, once the hype has died down.

If they've learned anything it's that BOGO and software sales will bring more PS3 owners into the Blu-ray market and encourage Blu-ray early adopters to stock up on catalouge titles.

[hollywoodguy]

Now all the posts are gone and I'm still humming Rick Astley...

Thanks, trolls...

At least now we know what Amir's new job at Microsoft is.

[Frode]

I don't believe that this is entirely true.

You're right, it's not.

In any case, the assumption that LCD and LCoS systems can simply display any rate due to non-traditional update methods is not correct. The timings in these systems are subject to constraints for proper or optimal performance.

You're right in that other concerns play a role. This was why I had that line in parenthesis. However, for all points and purposes, mixed frame rates of 24p, 60i and 60p are not a problem, and the content is actually displayed at their native rate - unlike with CRT where you have to deliberately lock on to 72Hz and duplicate frames to handle 24P properly. Instead of thinking of 100/120Hz displays as actually showing content at that rate (which they don't), it's better to just think of them as properly being able to handle the different inputs at their native rate without judder.

Or to put it another way, you can duplicate frames to 120fps and tell the display to display it, but because the frames are duplicate and so the pixels don't change (in brightness or color value), the actual displayed result is the original frame rate effectively.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by TauRus

Why not put Blu-ray first and DVD second?

Yeah, that would be best. These days, DVD is a given so it can be relegated to secondary status, so putting Bllu-ray first makes sense.

[atomik kinder]

Originally Posted by Chris Beveridge

Gee, you can't do both? I must be well skilled then as I manage to both game and watch movies on my player. And that's without including regular TV watching as well with a family of four. I should write a book on time management.

I have never been a serious gamer, but I bought a PS3 because I occasionally like to play games, but I have a huge movie collection. I don't think you can say that just because some really good games are starting to come out, people will automatically stop buying movies. I've got a few games, but when I was playing them did I stop buying movies? No. It is absurd to think that just because there is someting else to do on the PS3 you are going to stop buying movies for it. People who buy movies buy them because they love movies, not because they need something to do with their PS3 for the time being. And I am 41. I don't buy the people over 30 thing not wanting a gaming system as a movie player. People like things that can multitask. Just look at what cell phones can do now. They play videos, video games, music, e-mail, have internet access, so I don't think a game machine that is a Hi Def movie player is going to turn people off. Now a 360 with an add on, thats another story...

[monkyman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Chris Beveridge lets be honest here. The ps3 is in fact an gaming console. You have no Idea how many people come up to me and say they dont want a gaming console as their movie player. Without even trying it, they say this.

This is mostly adults, say 30+. Young people attend much more the ps3 and they get the whole package.

And when I have had friends over or taken the ps3 with me to showcase it, they are ofcourse impressed. This is the problem.

This is true, i'm 46 and will NOT have a game console in my entertainment center. (my daughter though has a PS3 in hers.)

I work with about 12 people my own age, 2 others have BD players (stand alone), none have PS3 or HD DVD units.

It is nothing against the PS3 itself, I just perfer the component look of a stand alone.

[Rustmonsteru]

Originally Posted by Chris Beveridge

For the record, I'm 36, use a PS3 as my main system. My parents are in their late 60's and they use a PS3 as their main movie player as well. Not the norm to be sure, but still a reality.

Not the norm indeed but likely a growing statistic: I'm 33, my parents are in their 60's as well. Once they saw and heard Curse of the Black Pearl via PS3 on my setup they were hooked. I expect they will have a 40GB PS3 by Christmas (if not I'll be buying them one).

[Seretur]

Frode --

Thanks again for a valuable post. I learn new things daily around here, and that's awesome.

So, to recap -- I will be able to get true 24p output from a Blu-ray player on my 100Hz LCD? Yes, si, oui, ja, da?

[Frode]

Originally Posted by Seretur

Frode --

Thanks again for a valuable post. I learn new things daily around here, and that's awesome.

So, to recap -- I will be able to get true 24p output from a Blu-ray player on my 100Hz LCD? Yes, si, oui, ja, da?

If it supports 24P input, yes. Most likely it will, but unfortunately manufacturers have tended not to mention whether they do or not, so you might have to search for your specific model to see if others have tested it or not in order to be 100% sure. I won't rule out a manufacturer making a stupid design decision and leaving it out for some unfathomable reason.

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by Frode

You're right in that other concerns play a role. This was why I had that line in parenthesis. However, for all points and purposes, mixed frame rates of 24p, 60i and 60p are not a problem, and the content is actually displayed at their native rate - unlike with CRT where you have to deliberately lock on to 72Hz and duplicate frames to handle 24P properly. Instead of thinking of 100/120Hz displays as actually showing content at that rate (which they don't), it's better to just think of them as properly being able to handle the different inputs at their native rate without judder.

Or to put it another way, you can duplicate frames to 120fps and tell the display to display it, but because the frames are duplicate and so the pixels don't change (in brightness or color value), the actual displayed result is the original frame rate effectively.

I agree with the second paragraph. There is definitely a difference here where 'LC' tends to hold its state (again this is not an absolute truth but to first order it is true) compared to a CRT where the state is not held for long.

Ideally the first part is true but I believe practically true less often

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by Seretur

So, to recap -- I will be able to get true 24p output from a Blu-ray player on my 100Hz LCD? Yes, si, oui, ja, da?

There is a decent chance that if it can sync to 25p and display at 100, it can sync to 24 and display at 96.

Of course, it has to be designed to sync to 25p (ideally to either 24 or 25) which is something you would need to determine.

[Seretur]

Thanks, phloyd. You and Frode truly came to the rescue today.

The reason I directed my question at Paidgeek was that I seem to recall him saying that his company had input into the creation of the XBR models, and, by default, the X3000 and X3500 models. So if anyone has access to the engineers who dealt with this issue, it would be him.

Again, the set in question got amazing reviews ("best LCD TV ever!") and its 24p output was praised. So I guess it's the 24 displayed as 96, as you say.

I just thought it would be grand to get an official confirmation straight from Sony. This set would be a substantial investment for me, but once I buy it, I look forward to enjoying it for as long as the current HDTV standards hold -- i.e., for the duration of the joy that is Blu-ray (and I'm not going to tell you what I'm watching my discs on now, because it's frankly pathetic).

Thank you, gracias, danke, prego, spasiba, hvala!