Archived: Insiders Thread

[DaViD Boulet]

Paidgeek,

this is a serious blunder for the BD group. BD has been a joke as far as getting dumbed down piece-by-piece to make life easier and eaiser for the manufacturers. It's why we didn't have advanced audio support in first-gen players and it's why we won't have support for 1080pHD secondary video streams in profile 1.1.

What can be done? PLEASE HELP US help Blu-ray Disc. This is important, and the manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to compromise our product to make their job easier for just a few product generations.

2 years from now dual-1080p decoding will be no big deal.

This reminds me of when Sony/Philips first suggest that CD use 14-bit word lengths to make processing easier in first-gen CD players. Can you imagine what a mistake *that* would have been?

dave

[Razter]

Well, there should be more profiles then. 1.1 = SD PiP. 1.2 = HD PiP and 2.0 = HD PiP+network connection.
Having SD PiP as mandatory really sucks, personally maybe not a problem as I can pick my player with the futures I want, but having SD PiP as mandatory, what signal does that send to studios? "Hey!! there will be 1.1 players that will never play your HD stream!"?
We already have problemes with uncompressed/lossless sound from some studios, what is gonna happen with this?

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

What can be done? PLEASE HELP US help Blu-ray Disc. This is important, and the manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to compromise our product to make their job easier for just a few product generations.

What can be done:

(1) The PS/3 should be updated to handle the HD PiP.
(2) Sony should release titles that have HD PiP.

It can become a defacto standard if the manufacturer must put out an incompatible player if they ignore the optional capabilities.

[JonasK]

kjack,

As I have understood it, both Sigma Design's and Broadcom's latest SOCs support HD PIP. Based on my experience with ASIC and video codecs, I would say that reduction in retail price for a SOC that only supports SD PIP compared to one that support HD PIP would only be in the order of a few dollars. Would you agree on that?

If so, I really don't see a business case for SD PIP only SOCs, and therefore all players will actually support HD PIP, which would make it possible to make HD PIP mandatory in the spec.

My second question, are there any SOCs that supports SD PIP, but not HD PIP, at all, and if so, will any profile 1.1 player be using them?

[LembasBread]

paidgeek,

SD and HD PiP aside, is it possible for content providers who wish to include a secondary video stream for PiP to make that secondary video content watchable separately? This would be smart for studios to do since, from day one, virtually no BD player can decode any secondary video streams.

IMO, it would be wise on two levels: 1) For those can't even view PiP [which 100% of BD owners right now can't do and it's still unknown whether or not the PS3 is upgradeable], and 2) it would be an attractive ability for those who don't want to view the content in the secondary video as PiP; kind of like what has been done with Blu-Wizard (under utilized imo) where you can branch to those features in-movie or watch them separately; PotC has this feature too with Scoundrels of the Sea.

Also, if this is possible, then content providers should still use HD video for the secondary stream so if we are able to watch them separately, then at least the special features will still be in HD - which I'm of the opinion that since we have this HD format, then all special features should be in HD whenever possible (which Sony Pictures does on all day-and-date releases so kudos )

Thanks.

[GoldenRedux]

Paidgeek,

I know that the 31 Oct. deadline is quickly approaching for mandatory Profile 1.1, but as you can see even from the few responses on here, people are not happy with this revelation that only SD PiP is mandatory. To the best of my knowledge, the only two decoders forthcoming that will handle PiP both support HD secondary video streams correct? So, would it not be possible for the BDA to call an emergency meeting to amend the Profile 1.1 spec. and make it mandatory for all hardware to do HD secondary streams, or is too late in the game?

[phloyd]

Last I counted Warner had 23 titles on HD DVD (can't recall if that includes the double ups like 2xForbidden Planet - I think it does) which are roughly evenly split between (low selling?) classic titles and IME enhanced titles.

[GoldenRedux]

A question for kjack,

Again, about PiP, (sorry for all the questions on this). If one had a player that only had a decoder capable of doing secondary video streams in SD 480p, and one was to playback a disc that had PiP content where the secondary stream was in 720p or 1080p, would that stream be unavailable, or would it simply be downcoverted to 480p and played back in SD?

[LembasBread]

paidgeek,

Is BD-J 1.1 specifically for PiP? Along with decoding secondary audio/video and increase in memory, are there other 'easter eggs' of capabilites that are included in the 1.1 spec that would allow content providers a level of BD-J interactivity not currently available with 1.0? Or is it it just about specification for secondary streams?

[tvted]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

What can be done:

(1) The PS/3 should be updated to handle the HD PiP.
(2) Sony should release titles that have HD PiP.

It can become a defacto standard if the manufacturer must put out an incompatible player if they ignore the optional capabilities.

I second your solution, as the PS3 is the vast majority of hardware out there. I don't see why this couldn't end up being like DTS on DVD i.e. the market determined its inclusion.

All in all, isn't it realy just a talking point (outside of David's intersting suggestion re 3D) and frankly I would prefer all the bandwidth go to the primary stream.

ted

[desmond]

paidgeek,

what's the point of having 1080p PIP if the bandwidth is still 48Mbps? why limit the bitrate of the main feature? i always thought that pip would be used for the extra content not the main feature.

thanks.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

That means I'm wrong too!

How embarassing. Is it too late to change the Profile 1.1 specs to include mandatory PiP decoding from SD to HD? One can only hope, as the current spec would ensure that the studios only include SD PiP streams on Profile 1.1 releases.


fuad

It is definitely too late to change the specifications. They have been essentially locked for quite a while.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by gandley

so to be clear.

the 'hardware' for a secondary decoder on a BD players must decode BD PIP as SD.
but that same 'hardware' does not have to decode HD PIP as its a hardware 'option'.
so really were saying one type of decoder will only do SD pip and another will do SD and HD if the vendor chooses to use that soc based chipset.

or are we saying, the secondary encoder can be used for both SD and HD PIP, but it up to the studios what they use. because a hardware difference pretty much means SD will be the norm and not HD


SO, do the new SOC chips from say Sigma designs allow for HD pip?

The hardware is not required to decode secondary stream HD (PiP). They are required to decode the secondary stream if it SD.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

Thanks for the response. So, I guess this settles it. This is very disappointing, to say the least. All along we Blu-ray supporters thought for sure that when we finally got PiP that we would have superior PiP, but now, it's just the same old PiP. Oh, well. I don't really care for PiP anyway, but I sure was looking forward to being able to rub it in.

I think Blu-ray PiP is still more flexible, but I do not have the HD-DVD specs to verify that. For one thing, Blu-ray can support 24p primary and secondary video streams. I don't think HD-DVD can do this.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Paidgeek,

this is a serious blunder for the BD group. BD has been a joke as far as getting dumbed down piece-by-piece to make life easier and eaiser for the manufacturers. It's why we didn't have advanced audio support in first-gen players and it's why we won't have support for 1080pHD secondary video streams in profile 1.1.

What can be done? PLEASE HELP US help Blu-ray Disc. This is important, and the manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to compromise our product to make their job easier for just a few product generations.

2 years from now dual-1080p decoding will be no big deal.

This reminds me of when Sony/Philips first suggest that CD use 14-bit word lengths to make processing easier in first-gen CD players. Can you imagine what a mistake *that* would have been?

dave

Dave,

I don't agree that this is a big deal. The format was not dumbed down, it just does not mandate dual HD streams. Is there really a killer application for this? Movies are linear...

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

It is definitely too late to change the specifications. They have been essentially locked for quite a while.

Bummer.

If the studios drive the HD PiP proliferation, do you think this will force CEs to make HD PiP decoding capability a defacto standard even though it is not mandatory?


fuad

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

Dave,

I don't agree that this is a big deal. The format was not dumbed down, it just does not mandate dual HD streams. Is there really a killer application for this? Movies are linear...

3D is the killer app for a dual HD streams.

Obviously, not today. But, having the mandatory requirement could lead to it. It's an incremental change.

Gary

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

Dave,

I don't agree that this is a big deal. The format was not dumbed down, it just does not mandate dual HD streams. Is there really a killer application for this? Movies are linear...

I believe it has been suggested elsewhere on these forums (perhaps even in this thread), that a 'killer application' for dual HD streams could be true 3-D video. What are your thoughts on this?

EDIT: Argh, Gary beat me to it.

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

3D is the killer app for a dual HD streams.

Obviously, not today. But, having the mandatory requirement could lead to it.

Maybe a new profile to handle 3D is the right answer.

You don't have to solve everything on day one... especially something like this

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by LembasBread

paidgeek,

SD and HD PiP aside, is it possible for content providers who wish to include a secondary video stream for PiP to make that secondary video content watchable separately? This would be smart for studios to do since, from day one, virtually no BD player can decode any secondary video streams.

IMO, it would be wise on two levels: 1) For those can't even view PiP [which 100% of BD owners right now can't do and it's still unknown whether or not the PS3 is upgradeable], and 2) it would be an attractive ability for those who don't want to view the content in the secondary video as PiP; kind of like what has been done with Blu-Wizard (under utilized imo) where you can branch to those features in-movie or watch them separately; PotC has this feature too with Scoundrels of the Sea.

Also, if this is possible, then content providers should still use HD video for the secondary stream so if we are able to watch them separately, then at least the special features will still be in HD - which I'm of the opinion that since we have this HD format, then all special features should be in HD whenever possible (which Sony Pictures does on all day-and-date releases so kudos )

Thanks.

It is possible to view the secondary stream as a separate item, but we have not tried this. If we authored in this way, the secondary file would be SD. Needless to say we will author our discs so that early adopters get to access the added value, even if it is prepared as an alternative stream.