"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Squozen

That's a good point, and something that hadn't really occurred to me. It's a variance on Hanlon's razor - 'Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by Standard Operating Procedure'.

So, if this theory is correct and Penton is relaying our concerns to the studios, over-usage of DNR could disappear fairly quickly as it's not something being applied because the studios believe it's required to sell discs, but only because 'that's how we've always done it'.

I would love to know if this is indeed the case....penton,wicky,thoughts?

[Deciazulado]

In some cases, could be.

[Rob Tomlin]

..

[Robert Harris]

My comments concerning reviewers were in regard to their perceptions of the disc as reported.

Nothing more.

[WickyWoo]

So, if this theory is correct and Penton is relaying our concerns to the studios, over-usage of DNR could disappear fairly quickly as it's not something being applied because the studios believe it's required to sell discs, but only because 'that's how we've always done it'.

I would love to know if this is indeed the case....penton,wicky,thoughts?

Little from column A, quite a bit more from column B. I'll leave it up to you to figure out which is which

[pellucidity]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

As the most obviously problematic disc to come along since...

probably the beginning of Blu-ray, it will be interesting to see precisely how many home video "reviewers" come out in favor of the release.

With the greatest possible respect for Mr Harris, can it really be worse than the first version of The Fifth Element? I didn't make it past the credits on that one.

[Robert Harris]

Interestingly, Gangs is virtually grainless accept for dark areas of the frame, which bristle with grain, and any imagery moving quickly.

Those with compression expertise may be able to cull something from those facts.

[captveg]

Sounds like a Fifth Element/House of Flying Daggers level disaster.

Ugh.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Interestingly, Gangs is virtually grainless accept for dark areas of the frame, which bristle with grain, and any imagery moving quickly.

Those with compression expertise may be able to cull something from those facts.

Since your background is in photochemical restoration rather than digital restoration, I’m uncertain if you’re probing regarding what digital post-processing methods could have been used on this title or if you’re being rhetorical. These same methods per se are available along the chain of production, whether a title has been ‘restored’ or not.

There are some DNR 101 basic points I made previously in a past post in this Patton thread…..(or, as I like to refer it to colleagues as, the Mr. Zero thread).
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...6&postcount=77

If your observations are correct regarding GoNY, then off the top of my head, it sounds like the operator just utilized the simple user interface portion of a grain/noise control process, in which he/she selected only the quantity of noise reduction. The inconsistent appearance that you describe (if correct) could have at least partly (if not fully) been remedied by utilizing advanced user features selecting for luminance.

In other words, the amount of grain reduction is luminance dependent so that a consistent grain characteristic can be produced on the finished product when the source has varying levels of grain in the low and highlights.

I think that the most credible observer in regards to this title and what it’s “potential” could be in Blu-ray production is someone (hobbyist or professional, no matter) who is able to attend the Academy’s upcoming theatrical presentation of GoNY and then shortly afterwards view the Blu-ray at home-- rather than relying on ‘vivid recollections” on when they viewed the movie in a theater years ago.

I hope some local LA residents take advantage of the opportunity ^ and post their observations here.

P.S.
Of course all bets are off if this Blu-ray is sourced from an HD master prior to around 2003, the significance of which I’ve already explained directly in response to a question posed by Kris several pages ago.

[Robert Harris]

Penton,

My background is in both photo-chemical as well as digital restoration.

It is not in compression, although I understand quite a bit more than the basics. I am not "fluent" in compression.

I saw Gangs at an Academy screening, and vividly recall the look and texture of the film. Those who screen it shortly will have a better point of reference.

My gut reaction is that this is derived from the same master used to create the original DVD, but with everything negative heightened via high definition.

A real pity, as the film deserves the quality treatment.

While not being a Pollyanna, my hope is that this will come down to something as simple as the shipping of the wrong master for compression.

RAH

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

...

My gut reaction is that this is derived from the same master used to create the original DVD, but with everything negative heightened via high definition.

A real pity, as the film deserves the quality treatment.

...

..

[dialog_gvf]

Yet, a professional compressionist should catch such an obvious flaw with the master and raise an alarm. On the other hand, they should also catch an obvious screwup encoding a good master too.

It's all very wierd considering who's work we're talking about. You'd think everyone would apply special care to Scorcese's works considering his efforts in preserving and restoring film.

Gary

[Ben]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Ben - where’s the write-up on the Blade Runner charity presentation at the WB for Paul?
You really have to submit something before Wicky does his thing with Comic-Con.

https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1425

No worries about Comic Con... I'll be standing right next to Wicky to make sure he doesn't get out of line...

[WickyWoo]

See if you get introduced to the cool people now Ben :P

Besides I'm more worried about certain professional members of the DVD community getting wasted at lunch again in between panels. That was interesting let me tell you. 3 beers and a large sake in about 45 min

[mhafner]

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

Once Upon A Time In The West
The "Restoration Notes" on the handout given to us indicates the following:
[I]"Once Upon A Time In The West was shot in the Techniscope format, which has not been in use since the early 1970s. Restoration required that an interpositive be printed from the original negative. From the interpositive, an optical conversion was made to create a new preservation internegative. Using the new interpositive and internegative film stocks now available resulted in a sharper image and finer grain than in even the original prints.

I must say I'm not a big fan of this approach at all for restored release prints. The loss of fine detail in them is drastic compared to the original negative and since this is Techniscope final resolution is even worse. (That goes for all traditional normal release prints, of course, whether the film is restored or not).
That was the only game in town till there was DI technology, but not anymore.
I hope they use the interpositive for the HD so we have only one analogue copying stage.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Penton,

My background is in both photo-chemical as well as digital restoration.

Would that be in theory or in practice…….as in ‘hands-on’ ?

Given your self-professed background of both types of restoration and supportive observations of the ‘Lowry process’, I look forward to hearing your comments about the classic James Bond titles coming to Blu-ray this fall as the top dogs at Lowry (despite having the knowledge that many DP’s use film grain as a part of their craft and make it an integral part of their storytelling) believe that the film purists* credence that film grain should never be altered is……… too sweeping a generalization.

And sometimes they practice their beliefs with their methods.

* No michel, I’m not referring to you in particular.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Penton,

My background is in both photo-chemical as well as digital restoration.

It is not in compression,

Nor is mine.

Refer all compression questions to our BD authoring and compression insider "2themax" https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=34986

The techniques I was describing above are digital tools available in the DI or telecine suite (which produces the theatrical source as well as the HD digital masters for the home entertainment media divisions of the studios) and …………..digital restorations.
In fact, in addition to selecting luminance as a parameter for film grain or electronic noise management, the digital operator can also adjust the grain/noise reduction based on chrominance i.e. colors……..like black or grey, for example.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Penton,
My gut reaction is that this is derived from the same master used to create the original DVD, but with everything negative heightened via high definition.

Possibly, I don’t know.
Have you done a side by side comparison of the DVD with the Blu-ray in your home theater ?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Yet, a professional compressionist should catch such an obvious flaw with the master and raise an alarm. On the other hand, they should also catch an obvious screwup encoding a good master too.

It's all very wierd considering who's work we're talking about. You'd think everyone would apply special care to Scorcese's works considering his efforts in preserving and restoring film.

Gary

Personally, for me, the good thing is that when I take off my *work* hat and put on my *home theater enthusiast* hat, I don’t heed anyone’s opinion regarding the picture or audio quality of this Blu-ray title or that Blu-ray title and just watch at home what movies I think my wife and my other friends will enjoy to see/hear on a Fri. or Sat. night.

And speaking of that, might I highly recommend to those that have already purchased or plan to rent The Sand Pebbles, that they take the time to view the *added value* in the supplements entitled “Remembering Steve McQueen” because as far as I’m concerned he *made* the movie as good as it is and was a man of many talents (ISDT competitor, Sebring racer), which the contributors delve into a little.

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by mhafner

I must say I'm not a big fan of this approach at all for restored release prints. The loss of fine detail in them is drastic compared to the original negative and since this is Techniscope final resolution is even worse. (That goes for all traditional normal release prints, of course, whether the film is restored or not).
That was the only game in town till there was DI technology, but not anymore.
I hope they use the interpositive for the HD so we have only one analogue copying stage.

..