"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Deciazulado]

Well.. good news is that Paula Félix Didier found the complete Metropolis in 16mm in Argentina

[AaronSCH]

Originally Posted by merrick97

A PLEAD to the insiders and Moderators:

Can we PLEASE stop with all this excessive DNR talk? As of late NOTHING good seems to be coming from it and its really turning off a lot of members.

I respect the argument being raised here, but some of us would like to ask general questions and are getting tired of seeing our questions disappear behind a bunch of "DNR is bad" posts.

In short, Im politely asking that we return some sanity to the insiders threads.

I used to be excited to see what sort of hints we were getting in regards to future titles in the works, but now I usually leave the thread bummed out after seeing bickering about DNR.

I hope this post does not come across as disrespectful to the insiders OR the issue that the insiders are discussing.

I think the point has been made and I feel that further discussion is causing nothing but further disagreements.

Thank you,
Merrick

I agree. The sycophants on this and other similar websites have become a huge bore and the emphasis on technical minutiae only serves as a buzz kill for many of us. In response, I decided to go ahead and purchase The Longest Day, Patton and Gangs of New York. No doubt, I will be accused of having lower standards. Ahhh the price I pay for my righteous indignation!

[mhafner]

Originally Posted by merrick97

A PLEAD to the insiders and Moderators:
Can we PLEASE stop with all this excessive DNR talk? As of late NOTHING good seems to be coming from it and its really turning off a lot of members.

Are you asking for censorship? DNR is an important subject. I think we can leave it to natural causes for the discussions to die down after all has been said. Instead of muzzles it would be better to develop a FAQ though so some of the most repeated questions and answers could be stored there for reference, together with suitable stills, maybe even short sequences. No, I'm not volunteering at the moment since I'm too busy with other things.

[mhafner]

Originally Posted by AaronSCH

I agree. The sycophants on this and other similar websites have become a huge bore and the emphasis on technical minutiae only serves as a buzz kill for many of us. In response, I decided to go ahead and purchase The Longest Day, Patton and Gangs of New York. No doubt, I will be accused of having lower standards. Ahhh the price I pay for my righteous indignation!

Radically changing the general look of films with DNR is not a technical minutiae any more than colorizing black and white films or pan and scan wide screen films.
Concerning your purchases... if you did it because the transfers were criticised the studios will love you. The ideal customer. If you did it because you have low standards and don't care, the studios will love you again. If all customers were like you they could save a lot of money.

[mhafner]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

O.K.
Suppose a Director made a film in which he was never happy with the theatrical presentation.
Given the current topic on the forums by *authorities * on DNR, suppose the original negative was just too grainy for his liking but given the reality of the original shoot there wasn’t really much he (the Director) or the DP could do to alleviate the situation back in the day.
Years later, said film then goes to a post/restoration facility to be “restored” or “remastered” with the intention of an eventual Blu-ray home media release.
If the DP was present during the restoration of the D5 master tape, and directly indicated that he desired some digital grain reduction (given the unhappiness over the original theatrical presentation)…………would you consider it *kosher* that the Blu-ray edition not be *true* to the theatrical presentation (or what everyone considers to be the “original version”) ?

Yes. But that is not the scenario for Patton, Day and Gangs.
And even in this case I can find the result not appealing and decide to skip a purchase. Or I might like and embrace it. It's an authorised version and any problems I might have with it is my private problem.

[mhafner]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Well.. good news is that Paula Félix Didier found the complete Metropolis in 16mm in Argentina

Great news. Why is the material in 16mm? The print shipped to Argentina was a 35mm print, right? So who copied that to 16mm and where is the 35mm print? Finding that one is crucial for maintaining image quality in the restored complete film.

[Arecsa]

Originally Posted by AaronSCH

I agree. The sycophants on this and other similar websites have become a huge bore and the emphasis on technical minutiae only serves as a buzz kill for many of us.

The nerve of some people, wanting the most accurate presentation possible How dare anybody complain about Warner and their constant DNR usage?! The massive DNR discussion would be gone if some individuals actually took some feedback on board from people who love films, instead of average Joe for once. The enthusiasts from various forums obviously aren't important though, thats why we continue to still see lossy releases announced and DNR on absolutely everything with no change in sight.

[Jack Torrance]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Well.. good news is that Paula Félix Didier found the complete Metropolis in 16mm in Argentina

And how awesome was that?! I for one got the movie geek chills. Considered forever lost, even by Fritz Lang himself!

Maybe there is still hope for finding "London After Midnight" out there somewhere...

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

It seems unlikely that it is intentional, all of the damage control I was doing this morning points to that. When I bring the issue up, most are surprised there is even an issue. I always get the same answer, "it looked great on our review monitor". The problem is that these guys are still using CRT monitors which much more forgiving than your average LCD or Plasma.

It is not widespread I agree, I think this is the first time we have even seen it outside of WB (where unfortunately I can't help but come to the conclusion it is indeed intentional). All I want to get across is that there is a sense at certain studios, that pleasing the enthusiast is much lower down their list of important stuff than we would like to think, and with each passing day it is becoming more evident at other studios too. While this is not a big deal and it won't make much difference to the day to day running of the home video department, it will mean BD-Live and BonusView will become more prominent which is something I know doesn't sit well with many people here.

Any thoughts on BD-Live, Penton?

[Jack Torrance]

Originally Posted by mhafner

Great news. Why is the material in 16mm? The print shipped to Argentina was a 35mm print, right? So who copied that to 16mm and where is the 35mm print? Finding that one is crucial for maintaining image quality in the restored complete film.

Let's be blunt, but in this situation, who cares? The complete version was considered forever lost. Written off as a footnote in movie history, it's memory with those few who saw it at those initial screenings 80 years ago, or through the scant few still photographs as evidence that such footage even existed.

In this case, I think this is one of the rare instances where most movie buffs will say "good enough" for the opportunity to see something as ungodly rare as this. It is a miracle it exists at all. Bring it on

[Robert Harris]

As the 16mm print was probably a reduction from a 35 neg, (which one, we cannot be certain at this time) and not via a 16 dupe, the final quality, if well scanned, can be quite acceptable and impressive.

Keep in mind that film in that era contained that silver stuff, which had the capability of capturing a wonderfully deep image.

I was told a number of years ago that the trims and outs had ended up at UTX Austin, and had been junked by fire marshals as dangerous.

[Knight-Errant]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Good.
Then suppose you have another case where the DP, not just “approved” but also sat in on the DI coloring sessions with a working colorist, and both of them decided on using some digital processing tool which gives the appearance of DNR or what people *think* is DNR………… with the ultimate “approval” of the Director, before the files were filmed out for the subsequent theatrical presentation.

Since the dreaded DNR was performed by one of perhaps the top 5 colorists in the world, (arguably some would say the current “best”) with the approval of an award winning cinematographer, and some would say the current “best” Director in the business, would such DNR (or what people think is DNR) be “right” or “wrong” ?

Absolutely right. Whatever the filmmakers want is what I want released.

[AaronSCH]

Originally Posted by Arecsa

The nerve of some people, wanting the most accurate presentation possible How dare anybody complain about Warner and their constant DNR usage?! The massive DNR discussion would be gone if some individuals actually took some feedback on board from people who love films, instead of average Joe for once. The enthusiasts from various forums obviously aren't important though, thats why we continue to still see lossy releases announced and DNR on absolutely everything with no change in sight.

It's not the issue as much as the arrogance of those who are arguing it. My mother always said "it's not what you say but how you say it." So let's set the record straight: I am an ignorant average Joe who is incapable of having a superior appreciation of film—got it!

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Well.. good news is that Paula Félix Didier found the complete Metropolis in 16mm in Argentina

..

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

First weekend starts if the 16th August.

I'm going on holiday on the 1st though, and once I return I will no longer be in the business of Blu-ray, just regular old finance.

Well, I still have your e-mail so maybe next time I’m in London we can go to a soccer match or some pub.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by merrick97

A PLEAD to the insiders and Moderators:

Can we PLEASE stop with all this excessive DNR talk? As of late NOTHING good seems to be coming from it and its really turning off a lot of members.

I respect the argument being raised here, but some of us would like to ask general questions and are getting tired of seeing our questions disappear behind a bunch of "DNR is bad" posts.

In short, Im politely asking that we return some sanity to the insiders threads.

I used to be excited to see what sort of hints we were getting in regards to future titles in the works, but now I usually leave the thread bummed out after seeing bickering about DNR.

I hope this post does not come across as disrespectful to the insiders OR the issue that the insiders are discussing.

I think the point has been made and I feel that further discussion is causing nothing but further disagreements.

Thank you,
Merrick

I don’t think you are being disrespectful at all.

The point is after viewing three particular Blu-ray titles and personally being unhappy with what they consider a suboptimal image, some *respected* and *knowledgeable* folks (not you Max) have extrapolated DNR into a defining point for the success of the whole format (Blu-ray) itself and the intentional actions of more than one studio toward catering to the Joe6Packs for a “smoothie” look.

Don’t believe me ?
Then go back and re-read all of the online comments (in Total) made by the perpetrators and see what take home message you come up with after digesting their “body of work”…..unless their comments have been re-edited after the fact.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Well.. good news is that Paula Félix Didier found the complete Metropolis in 16mm in Argentina

For all “sensitive” and “educated” enthusiasts (not you James ) that hardly watch the movie at all because they’re too preoccupied being amateur digital video janitors……………

Suppose the negative is overexposed and the operator wants to remove flicker in the highlights, how do you think this could be accomplished ?









DNR.
(I’m not joking).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mhafner

Are you asking for censorship? DNR is an important subject............

Michel, I’m convinced that if you see DNR or what you think is DNR on any film, you break out in hives all over your body.

As to it being “important”, I appreciate the fact that you utterly believe that as I remember nearly five years ago you brought this topic up on one of the professional venues – where you were schooled by people that have/had daily hands-on experience with this stuff.

The point that Merrick and myself are trying to make is that the internet chatter about “DNR” has been more excessive, than the excessive DNR occurring on a handful of titles that are the most egregious visual offenders……to begin with !

I realize that “DNR” is your stick.
Just like Dracula is the Mack Attack’s stick.
But sometimes you guys should just take a chill pill.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mhafner

Yes. But that is not the scenario for Patton, Day and Gangs.
And even in this case I can find the result not appealing and decide to skip a purchase. Or I might like and embrace it. It's an authorised version and any problems I might have with it is my private problem.

Any comments on post # 4272 ?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by patrick99

Any thoughts on BD-Live, Penton?

Personally, I don’t care as I’m a “cinephile”.

From a business standpoint, I think it will be great for the growth and success of the format because that will bring more of the mainstream population to Blu-ray, which ultimately means content providers pushing out more titles and faster and cheaper for all enthusiasts.
And some "enthusiasts" actually like this stuff........which is good.

That’s why all the conspiracy nonsense (one studio aside) regarding DNR is so ridiculous. Studios aren’t intentionally catering to Joe6Pack to provide a “smooth” video look, if anything their minds on are doing spiffy new things like offering BD Live to cater to Joe6Pack.

I have no problem with any type of *added value* as long as it doesn’t start encroaching on the picture or audio quality of the primary presentation (the movie), and I don’t see that happening in the foreseeable future, perhaps never......I don't know.