"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[FourToedStatue]

Also Penton Man a suggestion you could pass along if possible.I know the studios have been reluctant to release catalog tv shows like Lost seasosn 1 and 2. I remember the first tv show on dvd X-files was released with an expensive price. Almost Double what we pay now for tv seasons. Could this premium price tactic be adopted now, albeit temporarily, until the blu ray fanbase is sufficiently healthy?

[kjack]

Originally Posted by wallendo

Isn't that the NTSC standard?

Has nothing to do with NTSC, but is an ITU BT.601 and BT.709 spec. and applies to SD and HD video signals.

Very low values and very high values produced problems with the analog signal, so black was defined as 16 and white as 235 (The "NTSC safe" range).

Values less than 16 and greater than 235 were initially reserved to enable processing the video through multiple digital processes without running out of headroom. Over time, this became less of an issue, enabling xvYCC to be adopted.

[kjack]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Well if you calibrate 16 to be black and 235 to be white you only see 220 (7.78 bits)

OTOH, most HDTVs do their processing in 4:2:2 YCbCr color space, which doesn't use the 0-255 range...

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Blu-ray is encoded with color information through the whole range, including above and below 16 and 235. The sampling of color is what is limited hence 4:2:0.

Is this for all discs or just some?
I've seen screenshots from "The Perfect Storm" Blu-ray, and the black bars are all R=16, G=16, B=16 instead of RGB 0,0,0.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

Thanks for the follow up. I agree with you regarding the inherent quality of film. The problem is that the majority of times (at least around here) we don't get to enjoy that quality. Prints are worn and scratched all the time. It even seems that the projector can be out of focus far more often that you would think. They just don't put a lot of time or effort into the presentation.

Anyway, I'd like to hear about Sling Blade. I love that movie!

I agree.
You have to factor in those real-world negatives to the positive superiority of film colorspace. The common eyesores/deficiencies you mentioned can indeed end up being more annoying than any inherent superior color dynamic of 35mm film (which as I said before, only professionals working day in and day out with film one day and video the next will probably even perceive the intensity range differences, esp. in the whites).

Not everyone has routine access to newly struck prints showing at Special Events at the Academy or private screenings with perfectly maintained projectors. Seretur already mentioned a few pages back what he experienced with stepped on release prints showing Pattton and The Golden Compass in Croatia.

Regarding Sling Blade, the D.P. shot the entire movie with Kodak stock. As with the OCN, all the intermediate stocks were likewise Kodak.
I don’t recall exactly how many days/weeks the producers booked the respective post house (CFI) for color timing the Kodak stock but, I do know that Billy Bob T. attended each and every session as he was very conscientious about what *look* the theatrical presentation should have……….which was a desired rich golden hue and it was graded as such.

Anyway, to make a long story short, apparently without the knowledge of Billy Bob T. or the colorist at CFI, after the color timing work had been completed, the Kodak film was sent to another facility in North America and was printed on Fuji stock for the release prints (which was what folks saw in their local public theaters back in 1996).
However, Fuji positive stock does not react 1 to 1 like Kodak stock. So, the outcome was an appearance with a shift to green in the release prints and definitely no rich golden hue as the Director (Billy Bob T.) had originally intended.

So, like I said when this title eventually does make it to Blu-ray, you should see what the Director intended………a rich golden hue rather than the more greenish hue as people saw during the theatrical presentation and also increased resolution compared to the DVD that was published back in the day.

So……….in essence, better than the theatrical presentation.

[Penton-Man]

As I’m getting absolutely pummeled here at work with things to do, I thank
Bobby, Anthony, Kris, Deci, dialog gvf and of course Keith(kjack) for chiming in during the meantime. Forgive me if I've left out any other contributor.
Please continue.

JackBauer 24, I’ll try to address some of your concerns/questions in the future after checking into some stuff. I just dropped by with the above post as I figured I owed Rob and soprano the scoop on the Sling Blade.

Later folks.

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Please continue.

Ok, when does LOA come out?

[FourToedStatue]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

JackBauer 24, I’ll try to address some of your concerns/questions in the future after checking into some stuff. I just dropped by with the above post as I figured I owed Rob and soprano the scoop on the Sling Blade.

Later folks.

No problem.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

Is this for all discs or just some?
I've seen screenshots from "The Perfect Storm" Blu-ray, and the black bars are all R=16, G=16, B=16 instead of RGB 0,0,0.

That is because reference black is digital 16. But there is information below that as well. But you should calibrate with 16 as your clip point. You should preserve head room though, setting contrast to clip at 235 would be the incorrect way to do it.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Well if you calibrate 16 to be black and 235 to be white you only see 220 (7.78 bits)

Again, this would be the incorrect way of calibrating. You want to preserve head room. Clipping in whites should occur at or near 254.

OTOH, most HDTVs do their processing in 4:2:2 YCbCr color space, which doesn't use the 0-255 range...

Can you elaborate on this KJack? What range do they use as every 4:2:2 signal I've seen still uses the full range. The only reason they wouldn't is if the HDMI receiver chip was set incorrectly and clips, which was a problem with early SI chips.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Unfortunately deep colour is not in the BD spec. Neither is xvYCC.

I thought it was. What's the point of the latest HDMI standards supporting those technologies if the best consumer HD video format (Blu-ray) doesn't support either?

[tvted]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

I thought it was. What's the point of the latest HDMI standards supporting those technologies if the best consumer HD video format (Blu-ray) doesn't support either?

Not Gary but an answer might be that HDMI is a *transport* standard and doesn't require source (or even devices) to support all technologies that could make use of the bandwidth and communication protocols it enables.

ted

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

I thought it was. What's the point of the latest HDMI standards supporting those technologies if the best consumer HD video format (Blu-ray) doesn't support either?

PS3 games & multimedia and other future devices.

[Penton-Man]

With the Blu-ray version of Miami Vice, due out on the streets in a couple of weeks and indications on some apparent packaging material ? included in Transformers that Zodiac should be out around the end of the year, several members have asked via PM about the *source* of both feature films……..that be Miami Vice and Zodiac - regarding the low lit interior scenes and the scenes shot at night.

I already commented extensively on the *source* of both titles way back in Jan. of this year……..

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Miami Vice on HD DVD is video noise city for all early adopters that might have seen it – when determining whether to go red or blu back during the early days of the format war. This was shot with a digital camera, the Viper to be specific. Some digital cameras get very noisy in low lighting conditions…….think *grainy*. The Viper in particular exemplifies this trait.

Now, you take the film Zodiac which used the exact same camera (a Viper), and I don’t think there is even a hint of video noise in the shadows or low lighting conditions.

Why not ?

Well, they sure as hell didn’t upgrade the Viper in the interim during the production of Miami Vice and Zodiac.
So you see, the film Zodiac (despite not needing *restoration work* in the conventional sense of the word) received the top of the line DNR washing process by DTS (Lowry) even before it debuted in its theatrical presentation, which accounts for its *smooth* visual appearance.
Indeed, if it hadn’t gotten the Lowry processing, believe me…. Zodiac would have demonstrated the same plethora of video noise as Miami Vice shows.

The interesting inside scoop for all those nostalgic members like Esox50
is that back in the format war days, the Uni people had so much trouble encoding the low lit and night scenes with the VC-1 encoder for the HD DVD, that they had the *software company* people actually do the work.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Ok, when does LOA come out?

I suggest you bug the Kapra building on the Sony Pictures lot with dem spy listening devices.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by wallendo

Isn't that the NTSC standard? Very low values and very high values produced problems with the analog signal, so black was defined as 16 and white as 235 (The "NTSC safe" range).

In digital video 16 is black and 235 is white. Check color bars, for example, on a Sony BD. The lighter than black 4% PLUGE there is based on those values too.

Analog color NTSC added 7.5 IRE pedestal meaning the signal recorded/transmitted that was to represent black (no light output) would be at 7.5% (0.054 volts) of 100IRE (0.714 volts) instead of 0 volts and when you set the brightness down on the TV you pushed it back to no light output (theoretical input of 0)

On an HDTV you do a similar thing with the 16-235 signal: you adjust the controls so they produce black and white. And if you convert from 16-235 video levels to PC 0-255 levels of a PC monitor.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

I thought it was. What's the point of the latest HDMI standards supporting those technologies if the best consumer HD video format (Blu-ray) doesn't support either?

The latest HDMI supports things like lossless bitstream. AVCHD encodes in xvYCC, so that needs it.

More depth would take more bits to encode. How many people have 10/12-bit display panels?

For the experts: What would be the bigger improvement: 12-bit 4:2:0 or 8-bit 4:4:4?

Gary

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

That is because reference black is digital 16. But there is information below that as well. But you should calibrate with 16 as your clip point. You should preserve head room though, setting contrast to clip at 235 would be the incorrect way to do it.

Why do the screencaps on the Blu-ray.com site have the black bars at RGB 0,0,0 (eg. Transformers, The Hunt for Red October)? Are the screenshots on blu-ray.com changed/scaled from 16-235 to 0-255? and if so, wouldn't that lose info that was below 16 to start with? If there is info below the reference black (16), then wouldn't you want to make the black bars even darker so that no matter how much I altered the brightness the black bars would always be the blackest thing on the screen so they are as un-noticeable as possible?

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Again, this would be the incorrect way of calibrating. You want to preserve head room. Clipping in whites should occur at or near 254.

When most LCD displays have 10-bit or more throughput (electronics and LCD panel), and higher than 2000:1-4000:1 ANSI contrast I'll be happy to do this, but right now sacrificing 20% or more of the contrast and possibly getting slightly more banding from trying to get to match of the 255 signal levels to the display's 255 (or less) levels with many less than optimum (8-bit or less) panels I prefer to set max white near 235 and lose any almost insignificant above 235/100% highlight colors that may or may not exist.

With CRTs with their infinite contrast and voltage of course you can set 235 as the reference white level with no detriments and any peaks over.

Setting white specular highlights on video at 235 already gives you about up to a half an f-stop of specular highlight to diffuse highlight headroom the way most films are encoded and at the level their diffuse white points are set on the signal, which is normally about what people expose on most slide film and we don't see people complaining about loss of highlight color on those.

[Agent Cooper]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

With the Blu-ray version of Miami Vice, due out on the streets in a couple of weeks and indications on some apparent packaging material ? included in Transformers that Zodiac should be out around the end of the year, several members have asked via PM about the *source* of both feature films……..that be Miami Vice and Zodiac - regarding the low lit interior scenes and the scenes shot at night.

The Scandinavian Zodiac Blu-ray release looks terrific.

Alas the soundtrack is Dolby Digital 5.1 - no lossless.