"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Bizi Jones]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In fact, if anyone here can tell me the name of the fellow (shown in this quintessential motorcycle movie) who is popping a wheelie at the end of this clip, and who later went on to become a very successful motocross racer…………
I’ll send them the Spider-Man three pack set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCbtE...eature=related
Quite a lot has changed since then, as you can see.
Just too much for words alone.

I am gonna go with Bud Ekins

[ThatArtGuy]

I'll go with Jeff Ward.

Final Answer.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

No problem, I never considered you (nor Craig ) as one of the fanners of the flames of whatever the perceived or real deficiencies of the Blu-ray format is, this particular season of the year.

My post was more reflective of the plethora of PM’s I’ve received over the past few weeks where people were complaining to me that ever since they began reading other forums recently, they’ve found themselves actually looking for compression artifacts, banding, DNR, EE, etc. and couldn’t enjoy the damn Blu-ray movie to begin with as they were being pulled into the game of artifact hunting rather than watching movies at home.
What a sad commentary on how out of kilter some other boards had become.

But don’t be tooooo tough on any of the online reviewers because despite their differences of opinion in regards to things such as the presence or absence of grain, I’ve been told that those that do online reviews (and feel compelled to also post on the boards) are making a concerted effort to take back the boards from the forensic screenshot scientists and place them back in the hands of film enthusiasts, as things got so far out of balance.

We shall see.
In the meantime, a tip of the hat from me to them.

So penton whats the difference between grain and video noise?

i was reading a post on here and they said grain has to do with color or something like that,I'll try to find it.

EDIT got it

A lot of people confuse film grain with video noise grain or compression grain. Admittingly, on my 60" display it can be hard to tell the difference at times. Film grain often has tight patterns and an almost green and blue look to it although even that can be hard to see sometimes depending on the image brightness, contrast, color, etc. Compression artifacting is usually blockier looking and video noise is usually colorless and sparklie.

If the Blu-ray has less "grain," I'd have to assume it has less video noise or compression artifacting since it's encoding at a higher bit rate.

Is this correct? its crazy how some people as soon as they see any kind of flicker twinkly(haha) thing on the screen its......

Take pirates of the caribbean for example, i see what looks like grain but is that what it is? what am i looking at? grain or video noise?

[theknub]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

See post #4846
Paragraph 2.

Now it’s lunchtime.
http://www.sushiroku.com/sushiroku/index.htm

P.S.
Hey, to all those “rad” Olympic viewers out there, tune in tonight? for the BMX finals which are scheduled, I think.
The sport has its roots in SoCal motocross racing from the late ’60’s.
In fact, if anyone here can tell me the name of the fellow (shown in this quintessential motorcycle movie) who is popping a wheelie at the end of this clip, and who later went on to become a very successful motocross racer…………
I’ll send them the Spider-Man three pack set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCbtE...eature=related
Quite a lot has changed since then, as you can see.
Just too much for words alone.

Bob Hannah by chance...

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

The title I was referring to before was Baraka, which is an amazing looking BD release.

TDK was shot IMAX which is a bit different than 65mm considering it has far more vertical resolution. If the prologue is any indication, it should look incredible on Blu.

Just to be clear, only a minority part of TDK was shot in IMAX. At the IMAX theater, there was so much more clarity to the "shot in IMAX" stuff. I wouldn't raise expectations too high; we're also talking WB here. Got my fingers crossed!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

So penton whats the difference between grain and video noise.........

Technically, electronic noise generated by video cameras (CCD noise) and older telecines is added on top of the image sampling and contributes nothing productive to the *measured* resolution of the image. (see further explanation or caveat below)

On the other hand, grain from film stock is the image and it increases the real acutance (for lack of a better word, that I can think of for the moment). In this regard, have you ever perceived the fact that a still frame never looks as sharp as it does in the same sequence while in motion when viewed with a moving image?

Caveat……-however, even noise does have it merits! And well-informed Directors, D.P.’s, digital colorists and compressionists know this.
In terms of visual imagery, essentially, tiny bits of noise will add texture or granularity to any image (same thing applies to adding grain to CG visual effects) and the way our brain is wired, whether people consciously realize it or not, we all subconsciously *like* (experiments in the lab have proven this) a little noise because it adds texture to the imagery……….which makes it appear real.

Because in real life, very few (in any) natural or even man-made objects are totally devoid of texture. And how can you *escape* into a motion picture, if you don’t get the impression it is real ?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Bizi Jones

I am gonna go with Bud Ekins

Nope, Bud would have been quite a bit older than that in 1971 but, you get a tip of the hat from me for even knowing his name.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by theknub

Bob Hannah by chance...

Excellent guess, and I admire the fact that someone here even knows who The Hurricane was.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ThatArtGuy

I'll go with Jeff Ward.

Final Answer.

Dude, I never thought that anyone would get that !
Did you know that fact off-hand, or is that info on something like wikipedia?

Anyway, PM me your name and address and I’ll get the schwag out to you in the next 60 days.

And to all the car enthusiasts out there, after his motocross career, Wardy went on to be a purty successful Indy race car driver to boot.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

I would temper that enthusiasm. WB have in the past had great looking trailers on their releases, but the final releases left a lot to be desired.

The prologue on BB will more than likely not be any sort of indication for final PQ of the disc. I saw this at the Leicester Sq. Odeon, so the Blu-ray has a lot to live up to and I hope it does match the PQ of the trailer on BB, but I'm not getting my hopes up, not for a WB title.

Welcome back Max.
Your input is always appreciated.

[Kris Deering]

I grew up with On Any Sunday and watched it countless times growing up. You wouldn't believe how many motorcycle shops and "riders" don't even realize who Malcolm Smith is yet buy the gear with his name on it. Blows me away.

I remember watching Bob "Hurricane" Hannah as a child in the motocross races and cheering him on. My Dad still pops this movie in on occasion!

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

I grew up with On Any Sunday and watched it countless times growing up. You wouldn't believe how many motorcycle shops and "riders" don't even realize who Malcolm Smith is yet buy the gear with his name on it. Blows me away.

I remember watching Bob "Hurricane" Hannah as a child in the motocross races and cheering him on. My Dad still pops this movie in on occasion!

Whenever I hear the name Bob Hannah, I also remember Marty Smith. Personally I preferred Marty's Honda over Bob's Yamaha. I saw those boys race each other a couple of times at Sears Point Raceway (now called Infineon Raceway) back in the day. I was a huge fan of those two racers when I was a youngster.

I did not realize that Marty changed his name to Malcolm. Very interesting and now it makes sense with that motorcycle gear with the same name.

[ThatArtGuy]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Dude, I never thought that anyone would get that !
Did you know that fact off-hand, or is that info on something like wikipedia?

Anyway, PM me your name and address and I’ll get the schwag out to you in the next 60 days.

And to all the car enthusiasts out there, after his motocross career, Wardy went on to be a purty successful Indy race car driver to boot.

Like I told Penton-Man in my PM, it was somewhat of a shot in the dark. I kind of thought that was Jeff Ward, but I wasn't 100% sure. I'm glad my hunch was correct.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

I would temper that enthusiasm. WB have in the past had great looking trailers on their releases, but the final releases left a lot to be desired.

The prologue on BB will more than likely not be any sort of indication for final PQ of the disc. I saw this at the Leicester Sq. Odeon, so the Blu-ray has a lot to live up to and I hope it does match the PQ of the trailer on BB, but I'm not getting my hopes up, not for a WB title.

Great to hear from you, Max!

Unfortunately, your negative expectations about Warner have tended to be pretty accurate.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The “problem” is that few hobbyists really know anything specific about grain/noise reduction but speak as though they are sudden authorities on the subject, and now the result on some consumer forums is that whenever somebody sees “soft”, they scream “DNR’ed” and they are literally taking the fun out of actually watching movies in high definition for many film enthusiasts.

Just like few “film purists” know anything whatsoever about low contrast or high contrast film stock and how it affects sharpness and which years in the past showed a definite trend for filmmakers to use either, let alone for specific titles.

Combine this with the fact that you have people claiming they have photographic recollections of the theatrical presentations from years ago.

The “struggle” in the future will have little to do with the issue of grain but, more to do with the economic decisions of whether/when some content providers will appropriate funds for new HD transfers of some older titles that were mastered solely utilizing CRT monitors in the past.

I have a feeling that, as usual, Penton, you have pointed us in the right direction as to where the real source of the issue is.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

... have you ever perceived the fact that a still frame never looks as sharp as it does in the same sequence while in motion when viewed with a moving image?

Penton, on this issue of stills vs the moving image, isn't there a persistence-of-vision effect in play here, whereby the brain remembers information from the previous frame(s) and adds it into the viewer's perception of the current frame?

If so, doesn't this show all the more that screen captures of compressed digital video are misleading? Some of us Amateur Digital Video Janitors are fond of discussing screenshots of Blu-rays to assess picture quality. This would seem to be as pointless as listening to a single bar of music to ascertain how tuneful a song is.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Not going to be around too long. Going to Devon in a few hours, just got back from SA, now I'm on my way again!

Well, it's very good to hear from you. Perhaps we'll hear from you again when you're not travelling as much?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by patrick99

I have a feeling that, as usual, Penton, you have pointed us in the right direction as to where the real source of the issue is.

And it’s not just that (i.e. the mastering process itself). Some older titles that went through the telecine process and could cause some visual artifacts which forensic screenshot scientists would accuse of being “DNRed to death” had no digital grain/noise reduction per se to begin with !

The appearance is due to the old Scratch and Dirt Concealer option available with telecine machines. That option set of boards worked by detecting *impulse noise* on an individual frame and subsequently *replacing* it with a median value from the same pixel locations on the two book-ending frames.

Since the analysis circuitry back then was not perfectly intelligent, the fine detail was sometimes mistaken for dirt and then *replaced*. Thus causing artifacts visible with the very revealing nature of today’s full resolution HD consumer displays.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Teazle

Penton, on this issue of stills vs the moving image, isn't there a persistence-of-vision effect in play here, whereby the brain remembers information from the previous frame(s) and adds it into the viewer's perception of the current frame?

If so, doesn't this show all the more that screen captures of compressed digital video are misleading? Some of us Amateur Digital Video Janitors are fond of discussing screenshots of Blu-rays to assess picture quality. This would seem to be as pointless as listening to a single bar of music to ascertain how tuneful a song is.

Yes, and that’s another reason why the head techie guys from all the major studios don’t use screenshots to assess for the commonly reported janitorial ‘deficiencies’ noted by hobbyists after the Blu-ray title has been encoded, authored and become available to consumers.

They throw the disc in a player and view it in motion on a display device with several people watching who are technically astute.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by coolmilo

Whenever I hear the name Bob Hannah, I also remember Marty Smith. Personally I preferred Marty's Honda over Bob's Yamaha. I saw those boys race each other a couple of times at Sears Point Raceway (now called Infineon Raceway) back in the day. I was a huge fan of those two racers when I was a youngster.

I did not realize that Marty changed his name to Malcolm. Very interesting and now it makes sense with that motorcycle gear with the same name.

Duuuuuude, different guys!
Marty Smith and Malcolm Smith are completely different individuals!

Malcolm Smith………….and in this particular clip – ‘Harvey Mushman’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_YK3LWxDUQ

‘Harvey Mushman’ – a.k.a. -
http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/hall...age.asp?id=227

^
“Later, his contracts with movie studios prohibited him from racing motorcycles. He got around that technicality by racing under the pseudonym of Harvey Mushman.”

I like pseudonyms.
Penton