"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Sith]

Heard today that Terrance Howard and Marvel could not agree on a contract
for Iron Man 2 and that the role is probably going to Don Cheetle(spelling could be off)

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

You might want to read this:

Who Watches The Batman (1966)? Sorry, Nobody Just Yet!

~Alan

that sucks...sounds like it'll take a miracle, or a grip of cash...

[pellucidity]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Sure. The biggest problem is that Apple has been on the BDA for how long and have done squat to promote Blu-ray. If anything, they're as bad as Microsoft with HDDVD in that they have their own agenda to push downloads.

I couldn't disagree more.

You might argue that Apple's motive is to push iTunes downloads, though digital copy on Blu-ray exists to help feed the iPod.

I might suggest that Microsoft is so happy to build DRM into all layers of Vista because DRM is something they can control, and leverage they can use to become the middleman in media sales. Apple didn't want to build DRM into the OS to that degree, and that is clearly pro-consumer.

I think the day we'll see Blu-ray playback in OS X is the day that the BDA cuts Apple a deal to allow them concessions in the secure path requirements. Apple always wants special treatment and to do their thing their way, and I say that as a Mac user. As Blu-ray grows, not having robust support will hurt the Mac's position as the Pro tool of choice.

Unless some hard data (that realistically we'll never see) shows otherwise, I think this isn't about licensing costs or iTunes... it's about wasting money on the secure path tech that serves the BDA's agenda, not Apple's.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by pellucidity

Unless some hard data (that realistically we'll never see) shows otherwise, I think this isn't about licensing costs or iTunes... it's about wasting money on the secure path tech that serves the BDA's agenda, not Apple's.

Apple IS IN the BDA. My question is why? Have they done ANYTHING for Blu-ray? They effectively undercut it every time they do an update and don't include support for it (despite the fact that the aftermarket has met both software and hardware requirements). They obviously have a vested interest in iTunes, yet they're in the BDA and have made no overt shows of support (even during the format war when they could have helped). Now that it's won and support is steadily increasing, they still do nothing. Now their CEO directly undercuts it with his own words...

Why are they in the BDA? Was it just to be contrary to Microsoft and their backing of the now-dead rival? Why do they remain in BDA?

[pellucidity]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Apple IS IN the BDA. My question is why? Have they done ANYTHING for Blu-ray? They effectively undercut it every time they do an update and don't include support for it (despite the fact that the aftermarket has met both software and hardware requirements). They obviously have a vested interest in iTunes, yet they're in the BDA and have made no overt shows of support (even during the format war when they could have helped). Now that it's won and support is steadily increasing, they still do nothing. Now their CEO directly undercuts it with his own words...

Why are they in the BDA? Was it just to be contrary to Microsoft and their backing of the now-dead rival? Why do they remain in BDA?

They're deeply involved with production. They threw their weight behind Blu-ray probably as a bit of corporate diplomacy as much as anything.

I'll just say it: I'm a software architect.

This is not about money from iTunes or licensing fees in my opinion. It's about secure path. I can tell you that obeying the letter of the licensing agreement for Blu-ray playback on OS X would not only be expensive, it would require engineer time Apple doesn't have to build in features we don't want. Apple uses small teams of overworked engineers because that approach works for them, but they don't have the resources to do two things at once. That's why Tiger for Intel caused Leopard to slip, and why Snow Leopard is needed: OS X is quite mature now, and it's a good time to catch breath and review the code.

I'm not sure if anyone has stated here what 'secure' path means. We're talking digitally signed drivers, cryptographically ensuring you're talking to an approved monitor, and rewriting your display and audio code to ensure that you can send a signal that is encrypted from end to end, with no possibility of rogue programs intercepting either the deAACS'd compressed video or the decoded video, and similarly not the sound in compressed or uncompressed form. You also need to have additional processes watching for rogue programs and deciding whether to degrade, suppress, or restart the media streams to protect them. None of this really benefits the user. And at this level it doesn't really help the industry stop pirates either, since they can still just get the key and decrypt from the disc.

Microsoft expended huge resources in supporting all this in Vista because DRM is part of their longterm strategy. Apple certainly uses DRM, but so far they have chosen not to support this. Perhaps they will in the future, but I think they might be waiting for the BDA to loosen up. If AACS is hacked harder, that would help them negotiate

[Uxi]

I think the main issue is iTunes/AppleTV, particularly the tepid performance of the latter. As far as secure path, the main hold up is most likely licensing HDCP. Microsoft had to content with the wide variety of hardware supported by Vista. Apple OTOH has a strict monopoly on the hardware variation and face difficulties an order of magnitude lesser (at least).

Both DVI and DisplayPort support HDCP.

The 'complex' argument is at the very least a misnomer, but sounds like a complete red herring substituted for "I don't want to."

[aygie]

Originally Posted by Uxi

I think the main issue is iTunes/AppleTV, particularly the tepid performance of the latter. As far as secure path, the main hold up is most likely licensing HDCP. Microsoft had to content with the wide variety of hardware supported by Vista. Apple OTOH has a strict monopoly on the hardware variation and face difficulties an order of magnitude lesser (at least).

Both DVI and DisplayPort support HDCP.

The 'complex' argument is at the very least a misnomer, but sounds like a complete red herring substituted for "I don't want to."

Your 100% right, yes there is a bit of effort required by Apple, but to put effort into something that will effect and cost one of your business models money, no way. They'll push it for as long as they can.

P*sses me off. Still wont make me turn Windows though.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by pellucidity

I think the day we'll see Blu-ray playback in OS X is the day that the BDA cuts Apple a deal to allow them concessions in the secure path requirements.

Apple doesn't have to graft Blu-ray functions into the core of the operating system to give Mac customers what they clearly want.

All they need to do is make some Mac towers and notebooks with Blu-ray burners that are at least recognized by the operating system. Apple (or someone else) can make Blu-ray burning utilities and software BD movie players. Apple just needs to make BD-R/DVD-RW combo drives and full blown Blu-ray burners as configuration options just like Dell, Sony, HP, Acer and more and more PC companies are doing.

Final Cut Pro HD is one of the best, affordable application suites for editing and modifying HD quality video. I find it flat out backwards and absolutely ridiculous that Apple users have to jump through hoops getting their HD content authored onto Blu-ray. Apple customers have to go completely with the 3rd party route instead of just being able to buy a new Mac with the BD drive already there.

Steve Jobs can keep up with this no Blu-ray at all strategy and then watch Adobe finally catch up and stomp Final Cut Pro. Anyone who thinks that cannot happen needs to look back to a just a few years ago when Apple's $5000 Shake program was seemingly devastated overnight by Eyeon Fusion -a node based compositor that only works with Windows and Linux.

Blu-ray support is becoming increasingly common in new Windows-based computers. New application suites like Adobe Production Studio CS4 are featuring improved Blu-ray disc authoring. Adobe is already leveraging best of breed applications like Photoshop, Illustrator and After Effects in this suite. Premiere Pro has radically improved over its last three versions. Encore CS4 is offering what Adobe claims as "industry leading" Blu-ray authoring for both OSX and Windows.

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Apple doesn't have to graft Blu-ray functions into the core of the operating system to give Mac customers what they clearly want.

All they need to do is make some Mac towers and notebooks with Blu-ray burners that are at least recognized by the operating system. Apple (or someone else) can make Blu-ray burning utilities and software BD movie players. Apple just needs to make BD-R/DVD-RW combo drives and full blown Blu-ray burners as configuration options just like Dell, Sony, HP, Acer and more and more PC companies are doing.

Final Cut Pro HD is one of the best, affordable application suites for editing and modifying HD quality video. I find it flat out backwards and absolutely ridiculous that Apple users have to jump through hoops getting their HD content authored onto Blu-ray. Apple customers have to go completely with the 3rd party route instead of just being able to buy a new Mac with the BD drive already there.

..

[pellucidity]

At risk of sounding like a zealot, I'll go into this a little more.

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Apple doesn't have to graft Blu-ray functions into the core of the operating system to give Mac customers what they clearly want.

Yes, they would have to.

The licensing requirements for Blu-ray playback make absolutely no sense for any non-embedded device. The need to lock down certain data and devices because a third party requires it isn't the way operating systems have been designed up until now. It's always been assumed that root could do it all. The DRM in Vista for HDM playback is fundamentally different because some things happen on your system without your say.

Here are a couple pieces on the subject by Bruce Schneier, a well-respected security expert who writes for a popular audience, discussing the costs both financial and engineering of supporting HDM in Vista:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive...windows_1.html
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive..._analysis.html

I realize that I sound like a broken record or a FSF zealot, but unless Apple gets a sweetheart deal from the BDA, I think they will be very reluctant to fundamentally re-engineer their OS to meet the legal requirements for Blu-ray playback. The technical part is easy. As much as it annoys me, and as much as I was hoping to be able to buy a supported drive for my Mac Pro (I highly recommend it, Rob... they're brutally fast), I don't think Blu-ray support makes sense to Apple.

You're all quite right that it's stupid that Macs don't support Blu-ray. It's just that it isn't Apple we should be mad at.

Click through and have a look at:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...ista_cost.html

[Jeff Kleist]

Studios are not going to change their DRM policies because 5% of the market doesn't want to change their OS. I think we've seen how serious studios like Fox are on the subject already.

Since this area's not Penton's expertise, why not take this to someone more tech minded like KJack or Talk? They may be better able to address the tech end than the rest of us can

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

I believe he made this comment in response to a question regarding Blu-ray at the unveiling event for the new MacBooks today:

Bummer...

We even gave ‘em a plug at around 2:45.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWOQNXOZCog

And now the Jobster undermines us.

B.T.W.
Where you been old friend…….hanging out somewhere between the clinoid processes, or some such place?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Studios are not going to change their DRM policies because 5% of the market doesn't want to change their OS. I think we've seen how serious studios like Fox are on the subject already.

Since this area's not Penton's expertise, why not take this to someone more tech minded like KJack or Talk? They may be better able to address the tech end than the rest of us can

That's o.k. Jeff.
I'm enjoying the conversation and kjack or Talk are welcomed to chime in here anytime.

[Jeff Kleist]

Fair nuff

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by pellucidity

....

As much as it annoys me, and as much as I was hoping to be able to buy a supported drive for my Mac Pro (I highly recommend it, Rob... they're brutally fast), I don't think Blu-ray support makes sense to Apple.

..

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Studios are not going to change their DRM policies because 5% of the market doesn't want to change their OS. I think we've seen how serious studios like Fox are on the subject already.

..

[Jeff Kleist]

10% fair enough

The point I'm trying to make still stands

EDIT: Clarification- The point that the studios are not going to relax their DRM policies for Apple.

Personally I can tell you the one thing that will get Apple on the Blu-train real fast

That'll be the moving of the digital copies onto the actual Blu-ray. Apple doesn't get paid for the DCs if their customers can't access them (which will likely be through a BD-J app). Everything points to that being a place the studios want to be as quickly as possible

[Uxi]

If Toast can get Blu-ray burning working on OS X, why can't Apple?

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by Uxi

If Toast can get Blu-ray burning working on OS X, why can't Apple?

..

[pellucidity]

Originally Posted by Uxi

If Toast can get Blu-ray burning working on OS X, why can't Apple?

It's really not that hard, but I guess this is where Apple's approach falls down. They aren't going to support it unless it would be working in iMacs and portables, and there's little point in doing that without movie playback. So they probably won't support Blu-ray burning in the OS until they're supporting playback and shipping internal drives. All at once with a flourish is Apple's way. To be honest, I don't think we'll see Blu-ray at MacWorld either... maybe next fall.

Remember also that you can't do everything in software, your graphics chip and display have to support HDCP or else securing the bits inside the computer is pointless. I don't know whether the new notebooks have HDCP, but there's no solution for the Mac Pro that supports it yet. When I said I hoped for Blu-ray I figured on having to buy a new display and graphics card as well as a drive—which when you think about it, is ridiculous. A 8800GT and a 30" display are just fine for movies, but the studios don't trust us.