"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

What happened to the DP in all this? Isn't it part of their JOB to understand and discuss this?

Gary

Filmmakers have always made their films first and foremost for how they will appear on the BIG screen……..by BIG screen, I’m talking commercial theatrical exhibition. Plus, I do not envision that primary emphasis changing for the foreseeable future……even with independent filmmakers.

They’ve always just figured that the currently flavored home media format of the time, whether it be VHS tape, DVD, Blu-ray – whatever - would just kinda take care of itself in terms of presentation to home theater folk. Actually, until several years ago, there was even a disconnect at some major studios between the Film Preservation people and the Home Media departments. High definition changed all that.

Due to the fact that Blu-ray is a young format, it’s only very recently that some filmmakers have become attuned to the fact regarding how their principal photography translates to the high-def home media version of their creative theatrical work. And those few who do indeed care and are cognizant of the potential home media appearance of their theatrical presentations, have generally paid the most attention to things like focus and actors’ make-up during production.

Whenever they get the opportunity, studio technology home media honchos are working to enlighten filmmakers as to how their decisions and practices made during the principal photography phase can potentially enhance or adversely affect the Blu-ray version of their work but, this is in its infancy.

Heck, there are still many Directors and D.P.’s who have never even been directly involved in a digital intermediate post, and those that indeed do have that experience, have only had so for the past several years…… and Blu-ray is even younger than that as far as being on their radar screen.

All that being said, I really wouldn’t fixate too much on ‘grain’ because going forward in regards to future productions, more and more will be shot on Vision 3 (which is much more finely grained than Kodak Vision 2) and also with digital camera capture so, this whole preoccupation by some hobbyists (looking for excuses not to buy or rent certain Blu-ray titles) as to seeing grain as discrete particles in Blu-ray movies will tend to become of lesser and lesser significance/visibility in terms of an indicator of the picture quality/resolution of Blu-ray movies.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Hey guys,
been out of the loop on this board for a while.

You know, I actually thought about you when Capt. Greedle mentioned on the last page that he worked for National Geographic Society because there’s a rather distinguished underwater photographer named David Doubilet (think a still photography Jacques Cousteau) who has been on a bunch of National Geographic assignments and published a boat load of stuff in National Geographic Magazine.

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/...geographic.com

Anyway, nice to see you back.
And thanks to RAH for answering your question.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

.....if film (the original negative or as close to it as possible) is really a lot higher resolution than 1920x1080 shouldn't we not be able to see the grains at all......

When film gets scanned to digital, it’s sampling the random film grain, which is actually preserving the image sensor structure, the higher the “K” you scan it at, the more prominent the film grain potentially can appear.

Downsampling it to 1920x1080 will not make it disappear if you started with prominent grain to begin with.

The filmmakers for the movie 300 (scanned at 2K) actually decreased the grain for the HD master used for the home media editions compared to the 35mm theatrical presentation because it was so wildly uneven and they figured it would be even more distracting for 1920x1080 presentations.

[Bobby Henderson]

Even shooting in "digital" isn't going to get rid of "grain" completely -in this case electronic CCD or CMOS noise. Movies like Miami Vice deliberately had the gain turned way up in those cameras for the grainy look, and to also get fast exposure times in low lighting. You can see lots of tiny red and green noise specs in dark areas of dark scenes in The Lookout, which was shot with the Panavision Genesis camera.

In the end, the appearance of grain or noise in the original camera elements may be there as a stylistic choice. It's probably no different from the choice of using anamorphic lenses when shooting 2.4:1 and amping up the visibility of all the unique optical aberrations that occur with anamorphic lenses. It's an even more "movie look" kind of thing. I think it's funny that a number of TV commercials and music videos are shot with anamorphic lenses.

If someone wants the most pure, sharp, grain free imagery in their movie project, they'll do no better than shoot the movie in 65mm.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The filmmakers for the movie 300 (scanned at 2K) actually decreased the grain for the HD master used for the home media editions compared to the 35mm theatrical presentation because it was so wildly uneven and they figured it would be even more distracting for 1920x1080 presentations.

Wasn't 300 shot digitally (2K) anyway?

I was lead to believe the grain was added in post.

[pellucidity]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Yet the Windows platform is able to make Blu-ray work, either with or without the OS playing a critical part of the equation. Apple's inability or unwillingness to support Blu-ray could make Apple look bad in the eyes of customers looking for a new computer.

With respect, I'd like you to take another look at my last post. It's not about the cost or difficulty of supporting Blu-ray; it's about the desirability of doing user-hostile things to satisfy Big Content.

As you said, Microsoft eagerly made the Faustian pact, and yes you can play Blu-rays under Windows. But is that a good thing, when you consider the restrictions it comes with?

[Jeff Kleist]

With respect, I'd like you to take another look at my last post. It's not about the cost or difficulty of supporting Blu-ray; it's about the desirability of doing user-hostile things to satisfy Big Content.

Last I checked, amount of content Apple owns: Zero

So without "Big Content", iTunes is dead.

It's all about Apple spending money on an entertainment platform that they don't have control over. Everyone knew Microsoft's motivations during the format war, it's a shame that people can't also see the same coming from Apple.

Apple gets approx 30% when you buy from iTunes, they get a fraction of a cent when you buy a Blu-ray, and the more people buy FairPlay stuff, the more likely they are to be locked into the iPod family in the future. Through Digital Copy, the studios are trying to meet people in the middle

DRM is here to stay, and on Blu-ray it's transparent. Won't play on your monitor without HDCP? Hook up via VGA instead of DVI/HDMI. Software and firmware updates are simply the way things are with extremely complicated electronics, just be thankful that it's not like with DVD where you had to send your deck back to the factory at this point in the game

Studios don't want you ripping their discs, period. While you may just be looking to put it on your media server, the vast majority of people are looking to rip rentals or to put it on their laptop/Ipod. The latter are being addressed with Digital Copy.

When it comes down to it, it's THEIR movie, and if you want to watch THEIR movie, you have to play by THEIR rules, otherwise they can refuse to sell you THEIR movie.

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

When film gets scanned to digital, it’s sampling the random film grain, which is actually preserving the image sensor structure, the higher the “K” you scan it at, the more prominent the film grain potentially can appear.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Grain and pixels have absolutely nothing in common. Grain is random, not only in placement, but in size, from individual grains to grain clusters, as has been noted earlier in this thread...

which I presume may have begun sometime during the Wilson administration -- the President.

Interestingly, Abel Gance spoke of grain and his film Napoleon, as akin to the millions of seeds of wheat hidden away for centuries in ancient tombs, ready to be printed as opposed to scattered to the wind to grow again.

And speaking of Egyptian tombs, it was Freddie Young, BSC, who happened to be in Egypt as a rather famous tomb was re-entered after a long period, and who shot the documentary footage.

RAH

[pellucidity]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Last I checked, amount of content Apple owns: Zero

So without "Big Content", iTunes is dead.

Well, much has been made of Steve Jobs' dual role at Apple and Disney. I'm sure he's careful about which hat he's wearing, but that's a relationship he wants to keep pleasant.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

It's all about Apple spending money on an entertainment platform that they don't have control over. Everyone knew Microsoft's motivations during the format war, it's a shame that people can't also see the same coming from Apple.

I guess this is just a philosophical disagreement. I genuinely believe that Apple would happily support Blu-ray (and push the studios hard to use iTunes for their Digital Copies) if the copy protection requirements were less onerous. I don't think that Apple sees Blu-ray as a direct competitor with iTunes in the short term. And in the present day, there's more money to be made upselling Mac customers on new hardware than would be lost in iTunes sales. Apple isn't against DVD and CD either, despite Apple now being the #1 music retailer in the US without selling shiny discs.

As a software person, I really don't like the idea of not being in control of my computer. I don't object to DRM, it's the unprecedented systems of control they are demanding to enforce it I can't agree with. A flawed parallel: Say you want to buy a statue and put it in your backyard, but the seller demanded it be invisible to your neighbors so they would have to buy their own. The terms of sale required you to let him build multiple fences, one outside the other, around the statue and gave you only one uncopyable key to each. Maybe if you don't use your backyard much, that's OK. But I like to have full use of my yard and would probably keep it inside, in my study, where all I would have to do to satisfy them is keep the shades down.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

DRM is here to stay, and on Blu-ray it's transparent. Won't play on your monitor without HDCP? Hook up via VGA instead of DVI/HDMI. Software and firmware updates are simply the way things are with extremely complicated electronics, just be thankful that it's not like with DVD where you had to send your deck back to the factory at this point in the game

Studios don't want you ripping their discs, period. While you may just be looking to put it on your media server, the vast majority of people are looking to rip rentals or to put it on their laptop/Ipod. The latter are being addressed with Digital Copy.

When it comes down to it, it's THEIR movie, and if you want to watch THEIR movie, you have to play by THEIR rules, otherwise they can refuse to sell you THEIR movie.

I want to reiterate that don't disagree with DRM in principle, but as I've said I don't think I want Blu-ray on my computer if these are the terms—I'm happy to keep it in the living room. The idea that a disc plays or doesn't play based on the rightsholder's say-so is understandable, but I can't accept the systems of control the BDA demands on what should be an open device. DRM cannot ever, by definition, prevent all copying. It can and should prevent casual copying, but what's the point of requiring everything to be encrypted? The kind of people who would capture the decompressed video stream are not the kind of people DRM can deter. Slysoft's success at hacking AACS is exactly why this is so pointless. You can download ripped Blu-rays easily. We don't talk about where, but we know. I could download any title I want. I could get them from Netflix, too. Does that mean I don't buy new discs? The half-dozen titles I've added in the last month says no.

[Jeff Kleist]

Well, much has been made of Steve Jobs' dual role at Apple and Disney. I'm sure he's careful about which hat he's wearing, but that's a relationship he wants to keep pleasant.

Steve Jobs has lots of pull at Disney to be sure, but you can't survive with just Disney, and if Disney feels their content is threatened, they'll tell him to shove it whether he likes it or not, whether he's on the board or not.

The kind of people who would capture the decompressed video stream are not the kind of people DRM can deter. Slysoft's success at hacking AACS is exactly why this is so pointless. You can download ripped Blu-rays easily. We don't talk about where, but we know. I could download any title I want. I could get them from Netflix, too. Does that mean I don't buy new discs? The half-dozen titles I've added in the last month says no.

Copy protection, first and foremost is about protecting the first 4 weeks of sales when 50% of the typical units for a title will move. BD+ is renewable and they are constantly upgrading it (I've counted at least 3 versions thus far). Each of these versions has successfully kept Slysoft at bay for as long as 3 weeks, and that in anyone's book is a success.

Your Mac is not an open device. Apple is extremely closed in what they're willing to share, especially on the hardware and low system level. Windows PC by comparison is a far more open platform, worse comes to worse you sign an NDA, write a check and you're good to go (yes it's true people have fought for that in court). The basic hardware specs are open and anyone can get at them and design a component. Interactual's struggles demonstrate the struggles abley

It's not a Mac vs PC thing, I just think too many Apple fans have been too busy hating Microsoft to take a good look at what their side was doing. Jobs has always been a passion first, profit a hair behind second kind of guy. Most of the things you mention left town with Woz a long time ago

All of this is simply about the numbers it costs Apple to redesign their boards and write new code into the OS. Once there is a big enough user base demanding it and making it a condition of upgrade, Apple will do it, simple as that. Until then, they have no motivation to do so.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

300 is all blue screen!

Yep, shot in Montreal.

Gary

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by pellucidity

With respect, I'd like you to take another look at my last post. It's not about the cost or difficulty of supporting Blu-ray; it's about the desirability of doing user-hostile things to satisfy Big Content.

As you said, Microsoft eagerly made the Faustian pact, and yes you can play Blu-rays under Windows. But is that a good thing, when you consider the restrictions it comes with?

If the BD burner in a PC works like it's supposed to, play Blu-ray movies and burn HD video to Blu-ray discs, the customer isn't going to care about a bunch of licensing issues between various computing and electronics companies. The only way the customer is going to regard anything being "user hostile" is if critical functions in the device are disabled.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

All of this is simply about the numbers it costs Apple to redesign their boards and write new code into the OS. Once there is a big enough user base demanding it and making it a condition of upgrade, Apple will do it, simple as that. Until then, they have no motivation to do so.

Unfortunately, with that strategy Apple stands to lose yet another niche industry of creative computing over to Windows and have a larger market vulnerability exposed. Every mass produced Blu-ray movie from a major Hollywood studio is authored using Windows-based PCs. Apple is basically telling this to the general public: if you want to play Blu-ray movies on your computer and make Blu-ray discs of your own HD camcorder videos, you'll need to go buy a Windows-based PC to do that.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Even shooting in "digital" isn't going to get rid of "grain" completely -in this case electronic CCD or CMOS noise. Movies like Miami Vice........

Absolutely true but compared to 35mm film capture, as long as the lensers don’t intentionally stress the digital cameras to their limits at the bottom end, generally digital capture should be relatively grainless/noiseless compared to most film capture.

And even when they do push the lower end of any digital camera with subdued lighting, the filmmaker can always send it to Lowry Digital to do their algorithm thing………i.e. the upcoming title Zodiac serves as an example (Blu-ray reviewers out there take note , as that’s a heads-up).

lol, I’m just wondering now if the screenshot *scientists* will claim they see “clumpy” noise (as an indicator of dnr) after viewing the upcoming Blu-ray Zodiac, as it was shot on a Viper and refurbished with the Lowry process.

P.S.
Lowry Digital actually picked up a fabulous technologist over this past summer, namely
Gary Demos……………………
http://www.oscars.org/scitech/2005/sawyer.html
One of Gary’s past claims to fame for all those computer geeks out there, is that he pioneered the use of a Cray supercomputer back in the day for creating the VFX on 2010 and The Last Starfighter.

Fast forward to present day……….there is a movement now to use Cell technology (developed originally for the PlayStation 3)
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Pr...95E/index.html

for digital intermediate rendering, the goal being real-time 4K rendering which would bring the price down to that of 2K rendering. This will be a big step towards seeing a lot more movies finished in 4K in the future.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Wasn't 300 shot digitally (2K) anyway?

Nope……the bulk amount of footage was captured on Kodak Expression 500T 5229.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...blication+H-1+

The wildly uneven grainy appearance exhibited by the 35mm theatrical presentation was, to a large extent, related to the processing by a small lab in Montreal.

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

It's not a Mac vs PC thing, I just think too many Apple fans have been too busy hating Microsoft to take a good look at what their side was doing. Jobs has always been a passion first, profit a hair behind second kind of guy. Most of the things you mention left town with Woz a long time ago

All of this is simply about the numbers it costs Apple to redesign their boards and write new code into the OS. Once there is a big enough user base demanding it and making it a condition of upgrade, Apple will do it, simple as that. Until then, they have no motivation to do so.

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[Bobby Henderson]

I think what Jeff is talking about is the overall broad behavior of many Mac fans trying to never say anything bad about the Mac platform at all, as if it would be a disloyal act. Windows PC users aren't bound by any such pretense. They'll vocally discuss and complain about any faults with the operating system or any application running on top of it. The more open discussion of what's good and what's bad on the PC side has allowed the PC platform to deliver lots of new technology well ahead of Apple through this past decade.

It's the same smug nonsense that got Apple into very deep trouble in the 1990s. Little things like dismissing OpenGL, SMP and protected memory cost them the 3D animation and gaming industries. OSX allowed Apple to start playing catch up in that area, but Windows has never relinquished its lead.

Once this economy turns around I believe high definition video cameras and Blu-ray disc burning is going to take off in popularity in a very big way. Apple has already lost the "innovative" segment of this market -professional Blu-ray authoring and production. Now Apple is in a great position to lose the much larger, and far more profitable, consumer end of the deal. They can keep on talking about Blu-ray being a big bag of hurt in terms of licensing all they want. In the meantime, Dell, Sony, Acer and a growing list of Windows PC makers will be selling Blu-ray equipped PCs.

[Rob Tomlin]

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[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Apple, innovate?

Please, their designs are mostly stolen from Sony, and they nabbed the iPod design from Psion!

All Steve Jobs has done is energise the Mac fanboys into an online legion that no one will bother arguing with...

Did you not understand the point of my post?



Do you even realize that your very post here is a perfect example of what I just said in the post above this one?

PC fanboys are just as rabid in their accusations as Apple fanboys.

Thanks for helping me prove my point Max.

[Jeff Kleist]

And I think you are wrong about the Apple fans being too busy hating MS to see what "their side" has been doing. A quick glance at the forums at MacRumors.com proves this is not the case. The majority of Mac users are quite upset about the lack of support for BD. There is also a poll there that further proves the point.

I couldn't find the poll, but I did find a thread. They're still not connecting it to the iTunes angle. In his heart, Jobs is hoping that if he stalls long enough, just like Microsoft was hoping they could keep HD DVD going long enough, that they'll be able to get Xboxes or AppleTV into enough homes to take over the HD provider pipeline. Unlike MS, Apple is not openly sabotaging physical media. They ARE however content to sit by the sidelines until the cries become too loud, and more importantly too numerous to ignore.

His passion is for iTunes, and the expensive outlay to support Blu without the return he wants=Contentment to wait until he'll be able to put a fast plus sign next to the profit column quickly.

By contrast, PC manufacturers are all working from spec hardware designs, and buying off the shelf OEM playback software. Their investment required was minimal, and in many cases all they had to do was add a drive and slap the software on the HD. Apple has to do everything themselves

Does that make more sense?

And as one of the posters over there said "The second they introduce the Blu-ray in their machines it'll be the greatest thing since slicedbread in his book"

[Rob Tomlin]

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