"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Kris Deering]

Hey Robert and Penton

Speaking of LUTs, do you know if most post houses are using displays calibrated to 709 or SMPTE-C? There has been a long time argument that displays should be calibrated to SMPTE-C despite the HD material being shown because that is what they are authoring to with their displays. I realize that even if a display is calibrated to SMPTE-C in a post house, they can still use a LUT for 709 for the actual encode. Any thoughts?

[GabrielB]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Gabriel, you can probably answer that yourself just by recounting your own personal viewing of all films combining live action film capture with 3d animation (think of the later as your RED master).
To make it look real, the filmmakers had to have done one of two things during post, namely,

#1 Degrain the live footage prior to combining the layers then add grain later.
Or
#2 Add grain just to the layer you created artificially.
^ which was done with this,
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...80#post1442580

Yes... But here's the thing, we've been told regraining CG elements in a 35mm plate is preferable and "easier" because you have a reference of the grain structure already in the picture so the technician would need to match grain.

Whereas creating 100% artificial grain on a digital capture is trickier and it's more difficult to get accurate and authentic results since one does not have any reference visually.

This is what we've been told. I don't know if it's bag of misinformation.

I don't want to drag this any longer for you though.(I have other things I'd love to ask you... )
I will do my homework...

May I just ask this Penton:
What software/platform/plug-ins combos have they use to regrain the VistaVision footage to match the Imax grain structure from our favorite crusader's movie?

[Robert Harris]

GabrielB

Please keep in mind that film grain is not a homogenized product. Our classic Eastman stocks, 5247, 48, 50, 51 and 54, can all take on various granular characteristics, dependent upon exposure and processing. Push or pull and you can have a different result.

And this works not on a film by film, but rather on a shot by shot, or at least sequence by sequence basis.

Think that standard 54 grain looks like The Godfather, guess again. There are a myriad of examples out there. Plug-ins are nice if all else is constant and normal.

It all depends upon your needs.

That said, the digital world has given us wonderful tools. Just make very certain that those around you know how to handle them.

RAH

[cjamescook]

Okay, this might go against the grain, but I thought some might appreciate the following off-topic link.

Just about everyone knows that the PS3 makes for an effective BD player. But it is more versatile - it can also be configured as a supercomputer for simulating the ringing of a black hole.

See http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28895353/ for an overview.

Cheers!
-Jim

[Bobby Henderson]

Not too surprising the PS3 would get custom rigged into a super-computing cluster. The gaming console has the "Folding @ Home" application for connecting many PS3 consoles for medical/science research.

That news article was interesting in how it described the "ringing" of black holes. It reminded me of a similar description in seismic activity of magma build up in volcanoes prone to erupt. Discovery Channel is cool.

[frank_t]

Originally Posted by cjamescook

Okay, this might go against the grain, but I thought some might appreciate the following off-topic link.

Just about everyone knows that the PS3 makes for an effective BD player. But it is more versatile - it can also be configured as a supercomputer for simulating the ringing of a black hole.

See http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28895353/ for an overview.

Cheers!
-Jim

The very fact that Sony allowed us to install other OSs (e.g. Linux) on this beast is amazing... now if they would allow access to all the graphical goodies under the hood from Linux, we'll, that would just be the icing on the cake.

[Jeff Kleist]

The very fact that Sony allowed us to install other OSs (e.g. Linux) on this beast is amazing... now if they would allow access to all the graphical goodies under the hood from Linux, we'll, that would just be the icing on the cake.

Hardly. It's done so they can dodge an EU tax and call it a computer. It's the same reason why they did it on PS2 and call it a "computer entertainment system". They'll never allow access to the GPU because that will open the door for piracy.

[J6P]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

What’s a LUT?

Click here and view Loren’s explanation alongside a pic recognized by longtime faithful members of this forum-
http://etconsult.com/papers/LUT%20-T...termediate.pdf

Ha! Don't forget to give us reason to dust off our decoder rings now and again, Penton. Good times...good times...

[yobrenoops]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Hardly. It's done so they can dodge an EU tax and call it a computer. It's the same reason why they did it on PS2 and call it a "computer entertainment system". They'll never allow access to the GPU because that will open the door for piracy.

Max said in another forum that they're looking to add partial RSX compatiblity later in the year:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=17

Also apparently the EU Tax Dodge was a bit of a fallacy. I'll dig up the link for that one.

[yobrenoops]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Not for everyone, just for approved groups and such.

Ha! I'll get my facts right when I quote you next!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by juanell

wow! my brain will be spinning for days after the LUT explanation.Im curious, how does RGB correspond to a black and white film.Thanks once again.

Juanell

LUT’s are color correctors. Essentially, they are optimized for something like three channel 10 bit DPX for optimal playback and rendering speed. Dr. Strangelove was a bit of an anomaly because there was no black and white equivalent to 10 bit DPX log and an application had to be created by the 4k scanner manufacturer so that the various film elements could be scanned on one channel and that channel then copied to all three.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Actually I'm referring to the print stock itself. In the final analysis during color, we did not use the 93 "plug-in," but rather a proprietary LUT created by MPI for our project, which gave more accurate results toward our specific needs.

RAH

Oh, I thought you were referring specifically to the application I was recommending to Gabriel.
My mistake.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Hey Robert and Penton

Speaking of LUTs, do you know if most post houses are using displays calibrated to 709 or SMPTE-C? There has been a long time argument that displays should be calibrated to SMPTE-C despite the HD material being shown because that is what they are authoring to with their displays. I realize that even if a display is calibrated to SMPTE-C in a post house, they can still use a LUT for 709 for the actual encode. Any thoughts?

Hi Kris
You’re getting into a highly sophisticated discussion which is more the arena of the paidgeek or Stacey.

In reality (despite technical standards), almost all U.S. high definition content has been color corrected against SMPTE-C primaries for the production of HD masters. The material is then encoded in Rec. 709 primaries (colors) in the Blu-ray mastering suite. If the facilities run a good 3D LUT to convert the primaries from SMPTE-C to REC.709, then the colors should have the same look.

As far as cutting edge displays, last year, Sony introduced an LCD color correcting display which has an additional mode that can emulate the color gamut for DCI (P3)……………..

http://www.bandpro.de/media/Produktk...20Monitors.pdf

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by GabrielB

Yes... But here's the thing, we've been told regraining CG elements in a 35mm plate is preferable and "easier" because you have a reference of the grain structure already in the picture so the technician would need to match grain.

Whereas creating 100% artificial grain on a digital capture is trickier and it's more difficult to get accurate and authentic results since one does not have any reference visually.

This is what we've been told. I don't know if it's bag of misinformation.

It’s more difficult, expensive and time consuming to match grain well (scene to scene or part of frame to part of frame), than it is just to add grain to a clean slate (i.e. your RED master) because viewers of the end product (movie watchers) have no internal reference.

Since you said you’re in Montreal, just ask the folks at Technicolor Montreal as they had that task for the film “300”.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by J6P

Ha! Don't forget to give us reason to dust off our decoder rings now and again, Penton. Good times...good times...

Nice you noticed and remember.

[BluDomain]

Some days are so good. Today is one of those days.
Thanks Scott.
http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=259

[Penton-Man]

It’s good to see that Rob E. used a Blu-ray disc to replace his herniated disc rather than an using an HD DVD disc; otherwise, the orthopedic surgeons would have had to re-operate several months later after some usage, remove the hd dvd disc and boil it to get it functioning again and then put it back in.
Ouch!
Seems to me, Mr. E. saved himself a future back surgery.

Seriously, what Scott is talking about is not at all surprising. Some people on the internet can repetitively make the most egregious errors either in technical assessments (i.e. on *science*) or with future forecasts which have ultimately proven false over time (Rob E.), and their followers will display a selective memory loss and continue to read their nonsense.

[Jeff Kleist]

I'd say it's a common theme for most pundits who manage to worm their way into being declared an expert. One of them just got his column killed at the NYT, but probably for being a smug a-hole more than his terrible prognostigation and outright lying

All pundits SHOULD be put on TV or other media outlets in regards to their accuracy, and their related financial affiliations listed first and last in anything they write

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

I'd say it's a common theme for most pundits who manage to worm their way into being declared an expert. One of them just got his column killed at the NYT, but probably for being a smug a-hole more than his terrible prognostigation and outright lying

All pundits SHOULD be put on TV or other media outlets in regards to their accuracy, and their related financial affiliations listed first and last in anything they write

+infinity

It seemed that there were also a lot of pro HD DVD tech columnists during the height of the war... Don Lindich seemed to be on the same HD DVD has won or was going to win bandwagon.

After Toshiba gave away free HD DVD players to AVSForum and HometheaterForum members at CEDIA a couple of years ago you have to wonder how many tech journalists got free HD DVD players in exchange for good press.

BTW any coincidence why there was such a loyalty to HD DVD at those forums... bought and paid for comes to mind.

Maybe that's why Bill Hunt became so hated among HD DVD propagandists... did they give him a free player and in return he refused to jump on the HD DVD propaganda bandwagon. purely speculation, but boy did some of those AVS DUDers really hate Bill.

[kpkelley]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

I'd say it's a common theme for most pundits who manage to worm their way into being declared an expert. One of them just got his column killed at the NYT, but probably for being a smug a-hole more than his terrible prognostigation and outright lying

All pundits SHOULD be put on TV or other media outlets in regards to their accuracy, and their related financial affiliations listed first and last in anything they write

It's like Barry Melrose on ESPN telling the people what coaches and general managers in the NHL should be doing, but when he tries it he gets fired in the first two months