"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by iceman

Since I'm somewhat of a wine/Champagne gourmand I accidently ran into a new Champagne when doing some research. So Penton, if you are planning on going to any Hollywood parties in the near future, I recommend you to bring a dozen of those for immediate party success!

I’ve heard of it also but, I don’t think one can purchase the stuff anywhere locally. It would perhaps *set the mood* for an upcoming Grammy after-party I have in mind.

Tarlant branded one of their champagnes with the DISCO***** name in reference to the French musical group “Disco*****”.
I love the vocalists et ce chanson ………………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CqT2Bu3aME
as it’s good music to boogey to.

Then, when I return home, I prefer this French voice (Louise Vertigo) to relax to ……
http://www.sushiroku.com/sushiroku/index.htm

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

BATTLE OF THE BULGE is (as THE LONGEST DAY and PATTON, though there with different tools) another example how denoising tools should not be used in the mastering process, if they are used at all. I still have huge problems with these kind of tools, especially when they are not checked (QCd) frame by frame and when performed on the original transfer master level. The problems are very easy to spot; and for a 65mm scan, which (provided a low generation element was used, and that seems to be the case) should render an excellent quality result, is an odd thing to happen to say the least. The problems with SPARTACUS are much different in nature (choice of source, numerous errors in color re-timing during mastering, massive de-noising, compression artifacts on the master used etc) but once the proper element(s) is/are used and the proper tools [and people] included in the workflow the result should be just fine. 8K is, indeed, a waste of money if cleanup and digital restoration are not performed on the same level; artifacting is still also an issue when the 8K master is downconverted to HD level. 4K, however, could provide a far better plattform as the oversampling here would be beneficial and artifacts not be as much of a problem. But, even a 4K scan is still very expensive.

Thanks for your insights, could you give a ballpark number by how much of a percentage the price increases for a complete 4k workflow including cleanup and restoration compared to doing everything in 2k ?

Somebody who works in the industry and mainly with new productions told me that they only charge 30% more for the 4k scan itself compared to 2k as for a higher price there was close to zero demand for the higher resolution. I would guess that digital cleanup and restoration at 4k would necessitate more than a 30% price increase but still an interesting number.

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

This is quite correct, but does not apply to the 1950s Eastman Color productions.

OCNs survive on many three-strip Tech shows now heading toward their eighth decade, but 1950s Eastman...

RAH

Yeah, unfortunately. The Eastmancolor process of that era is certainly "somethin' else". Who was the actress again who said something like "I rather be caught dead than on Eastmancolor" ? I read the quote some years ago, but forgot who it was...

Speaking of amazement: Especially when you consider all this and the fact that many feature films from 40, 50, 60 years ago have their fair share of (sometimes great) problems, it is downright baffling to see how well at the same time some other features or even the odd documentary reel of the same era if not before have survived over the decades, sometimes inspite of the odds, be they B/W or color (depending on the process and stock). This shows what a wonderful thing film can be, and why to this day archivists see film elements as more reliable a source for preservation than digital media storage. It may not be perfect, but film never ceases to amaze me. Especially when the photography is well done, the beauty of some of these old elements is captivating and a pleasure to work with, even when damaged. Perhaps that makes the restoration for us the more rewarding; seeing the image then restored, knowing the before and the after, I mean. But, as I said, in so many other cases in this field, the further you go back in time, films survive no longer "intact" (complete) or can no longer be restored from one single source such as an CN. That often can be time (and money) consuming work. All too often parts of the CN are so damaged they are unusable or parts or even the entire CN is "misplaced" if not destroyed - which leaves fine grain (if a well developed one was made), or dupe sources (neg and pos) to work with as alternative, or completing elements.

Where it really gets more complicated is when print sources have to be selected for completion; if footage of some shots exists in best quality only on these souces. The photo-chemical "room to manoever" with these sources, compared to the CN, fine grain, or even dupes (if well developed) is very narrow; which means that the work in the photo-optical and the digital realms has to be that more precise. Here, the price also rises sharply when scratches, debris, deformation, perforation damage or even tears come into play - but the most challenging is combining the different film element sources, which can be sometimes drastically different because of the nature of the (analogue) developmental process, to register as "one", i.e. matching the shots (and sometimes frames) so you see little to no difference between the materials. Fading in color film elements can be just as much a nightmare; but here a lot of things have changed in the digital world to aid us if not "come to the rescue". But, again, what is vital, is the knowledge and experience of (ideally) all three worlds (photo-chemical, photo-optical, digital) and the tools you use to work with these challenges. For all the good things I have seen re: restoration work, I have seen also some very poor excuses that were supposed to pass for one. DVD has made the term restoration a household name; yet a lot of what was labled "restoration" had absolutely nothing to do with it, on the contrary. Projects like the ones I was referring to above, such as the METROPOLIS', the SPARTACUS' or the BLADE RUNNERs - is where the term restoration, indeed, carries its full weight and true meaning, and I take my hat off to the people involved in these kind of projects.

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As an aside, a few years back, Pacific Title was promoting a process to digitally generate YCM separation masters.
Torsten, I would have passed this info on to you last month, as the event was open to non-members and was free (including the evening’s reception) ……
---------------------------------------
Making it in Post - Cinematography and Post-production

The BVK, German Society of Cinematographers, whilst holding its Annual
General Assembly is holding a series of presentations or lectures this coming Saturday 24th of January.
The theme of the symposium is "Making it in Post - Cinematography and
Post-production". Location is Studio Hamburg, Jensfelder Allee 80, 22039
Hamburg. Some participants to the presentations or lectures are:

- Benjamin Müller, DedoWeigert "Life is to short for 24 frames- Highspeed in HD"
- Rolf Coulanges bvk - "Postpro with Raw date D-21"
- Martin Ludwig bvk & Florian Rettich bvk - "Documentary and Post-production with RED"
- Alexander Schwarz (VANTAGE) - "Prepping for Post-production ,the PSU-3 on Set"
-Stefan Ciupek , (P+S Technik) - "Slumdog Millionaire" (SI-2K)
- Holger Schwärzel (KODAK) - "Emulsionsdesign for the digital Workflow"
- Henning Rädlein (ARRI) - "Film-Degraining: a new Post-productions-Tool"
-----------------------------------------------

but, I didn’t…… because I figured your company is well south of Hamburg, which begs the question (for future reference), where do you guys do your day jobs in Germany?

Well, actually more to the East and just a little to the South, but merely an hour and a half away by train
KODAK's topic and ARRIs are interesting. Re: ARRI - they are working on de-graining solutions that could be appealing to clients with grainy material (such as older 16mm stocks) that would have trouble on the broadcast master level with macroblocking and other artifacts when transmitted in broadcasts w/ narrow bandwidth. Sounds all very nice, but we'll see. Re: day jobs - the capital

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

BATTLE OF THE BULGE is another example how denoising tools should not be used in the mastering process, if they are used at all. I still have huge problems with these kind of tools, especially when they are not checked (QCd) frame by frame and when performed on the original transfer master level. The problems are very easy to spot; and for a 65mm scan, which (provided a low generation element was used, and that seems to be the case) should render an excellent quality result, is an odd thing to happen to say the least.

What leads you to believe that BotB was a 65mm scan?

RAH

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

Speaking of amazement: Especially when you consider all this and the fact that many feature films from 40, 50, 60 years ago have their fair share of (sometimes great) problems, it is downright baffling to see how well at the same time some other features or even the odd documentary reel of the same era if not before have survived over the decades, sometimes inspite of the odds, be they B/W or color (depending on the process and stock). This shows what a wonderful thing film can be, and why to this day archivists see film elements as more reliable a source for preservation than digital media storage. It may not be perfect, but film never ceases to amaze me.

The more cans one opens, the less amazing things become.

While we can agree that Eastman stock, in general, has proven itself throughout more than a century to be robust and able to take huge amounts of physical abuse, other points are less surprising.

If one is going to attempt the restoration of a production, it is reasonably known in advance, before even opening a can, the problems entailed -- some insurmountable, some not.

On a studio by studio, production company by production company basis, a great deal is known in advance. In a general sense, at the very top of the film condition food chain is M-G-M, and by that I mean the original M-G-M.

The reason?

The foresightedness of Roger Mayer, as far as I know, the only studio executive to have created an actual plan to protect and preserve a studio's output. When you see an M-G-M black & white classic or Technicolor production from the 1930s or '40s or '50s, there's a good chance that it survived because of Mr. Mayer.

Some other studios were not only not as lucky, but were downright negligent or self-destructive within their mechanisms of handling their libraries. This is proven time and again, when there attempts to bring "classics" or library titles to Blu-ray.

As far as the actual stocks are concerned, I believe director Abel Gance said it best. When working to create a new sound version of his classic silent Napoleon c. 1970, he commented that upon opening the vaults containing his original surviving materials, he found his almost half century old film to be akin to grains of wheat locked away for millennia in Egyptian tombs.

Like the wheat, his grains of silver, much like wheat thrown to the winds to grow, could be once again exposed to light to delight modern audiences.

RAH

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

What leads you to believe that BotB was a 65mm scan?

RAH

Hey Robert - The (hopefully correct) assumption that WB mean what they say when the back cover reads: "New Digital HD Transfer from RESTORED Picture and Audio Elements". If the words are true, and literally taken, the reference to "picture" and "audio elements" means film(elements) from which a new HD master was derived. A (picture) restoration obviously in this case only makes sense on the large format level. WB has a similar note on GRAND PRIX and MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY ('62). Do you have information that WBs cover note is incorrect ? (not that it would be the first time...)

TK

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

The more cans one opens, the less amazing things become.
While we can agree that Eastman stock, in general, has proven itself throughout more than a century to be robust and able to take huge amounts of physical abuse, other points are less surprising.

If one is going to attempt the restoration of a production, it is reasonably known in advance, before even opening a can, the problems entailed -- some insurmountable, some not.

On a studio by studio, production company by production company basis, a great deal is known in advance. In a general sense, at the very top of the film condition food chain is M-G-M, and by that I mean the original M-G-M.

The reason?

The foresightedness of Roger Mayer, as far as I know, the only studio executive to have created an actual plan to protect and preserve a studio's output. When you see an M-G-M black & white classic or Technicolor production from the 1930s or '40s or '50s, there's a good chance that it survived because of Mr. Mayer.

Some other studios were not only not as lucky, but were downright negligent or self-destructive within their mechanisms of handling their libraries. This is proven time and again, when there attempts to bring "classics" or library titles to Blu-ray.

As far as the actual stocks are concerned, I believe director Abel Gance said it best. When working to create a new sound version of his classic silent Napoleon c. 1970, he commented that upon opening the vaults containing his original surviving materials, he found his almost half century old film to be akin to grains of wheat locked away for millennia in Egyptian tombs.

Like the wheat, his grains of silver, much like wheat thrown to the winds to grow, could be once again exposed to light to delight modern audiences.

RAH

I was more referring to film as a (storage)medium being still the preferred choice for many in the archival world as opposed to all digital storage available now - provided it is preserved/stored under proper conditions. Holographic data storage such as developed by the Fraunhofer Institute in Germany or Maxell in Japan may be an adequate answer or even the solution down the road, but that is still a long way off.

Re: older cans (with its content not properly "handled") you are certainly right though - sometimes it can be hard to keep up any humor in all this. But, as I said, there are those surprises out there, which are a delight, but these are, unfortunately, not even remotely close to the majority. The fact that the number is relatively tiny showcases best what uphill battle people like Robert, Martin Koerber (the man behind the restorations of METROPLIS, VAMPYR and the photo-chemical restoration of "M"), Thomas Christensen (of the Danish Film Institute - many silents and C.Th. Dreyer films "passed his desk"), or, in the studios, a Barry Allen over at Paramount, a Grover Crisp at SONY Pictures or a Schawn Belston at FOX - to name merely a few of so many doing very good work - face. Working on projects like it (involving very problematic elements) can sometimes be like chewing on the same gum even though all it has left is just bitter taste. The funny thing is, after some months post the finishing of the project, you begin to "forget" the work, the frames corrected, the damages, the hardship and struggle. You begin to see what people see who were not involved in the process - a restored and therefore improved image. Granted, with some projects that may take a bit longer.
Re: Roger L. Mayer - foresight is exactly right. I wonder how different MGM's catalogue would look if that decision would not have been enforced. For those interested - here is a brief (very brief) vitae. http://www.hollywoodawards.com/mayer/index.html

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

Hey Robert - The (hopefully correct) assumption that WB mean what they say when the back cover reads: "New Digital HD Transfer from RESTORED Picture and Audio Elements". If the words are true, and literally taken, the reference to "picture" and "audio elements" means film(elements) from which a new HD master was derived. A (picture) restoration obviously in this case only makes sense on the large format level. WB has a similar note on GRAND PRIX and MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY ('62). Do you have information that WBs cover note is incorrect ? (not that it would be the first time...)

TK
[/FONT]

First, these films should not be in need of any restoration, so regretfully the note makes little sense.

While I have not checked, I would believe that BotB would have been transferred from a 35mm IP.

RAH

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

On a studio by studio, production company by production company basis, a great deal is known in advance. In a general sense, at the very top of the film condition food chain is M-G-M, and by that I mean the original M-G-M.

It seems that the 1959 Ben Hur does not really reside at the top of that food chain, apparently everything changed for the worse at some point ?

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

First, these films should not be in need of any restoration, so regretfully the note makes little sense.

While I have not checked, I would believe that BotB would have been transferred from a 35mm IP.

RAH

As I said, it would not be the first time WB had wrong info on the cover, but still - this is curious, since it happened 3 times in a similar way... I have the other 2 discs (HD DVDs) in front of me now; both state "New Digital Transfer from Restored 65mm Elements". It is (in all 3 cases) listed under SPECIAL FEATURE. Great.

I had some doubts about GRAND PRIX being in need of a true restoration; and I have the suspicion that the term is here, too, used rather carelessly in reference to not photo-chemical by actually digital work being done i.e. to cleanup the image. That is most certainly true also on MotB (the de-graining is VERY noticeable) but here I was not at all sure re: photochemical restoration needs. I had heard some years back that there were problems there. The source, however, was not directly connected to the library.

Help me here - why would for a High Definition master a 35mm IP of BotB be chosen ?

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

Thanks for your insights, could you give a ballpark number by how much of a percentage the price increases for a complete 4k workflow including cleanup and restoration compared to doing everything in 2k ?

Somebody who works in the industry and mainly with new productions told me that they only charge 30% more for the 4k scan itself compared to 2k as for a higher price there was close to zero demand for the higher resolution. I would guess that digital cleanup and restoration at 4k would necessitate more than a 30% price increase but still an interesting number.

A general number that fits all is not really realistic since there are many variables affecting the work. It would depend very much on the materials and the tasks that need to be performed. For instance, it is possible that while in some shots a tear that needs to be restored could be corrected with a more simple approach in the 2K realm that same tear may require much more detailed and thus longer work in 4K (such as with a whole set of patches) in order to insure the same level of quality. In other shots the same approach for a scratch may work in 2K just as nicely as in 4K. The color re-timing in 4K would certainly be much more expensive than in 2K; the handling of the files certainly also weighs much more heavily on the project than on a 2K. Still, I would think that the costs are much higher than the 30% re: scanning you mentioned. The 30% plus for a 4K upgrade is certainly interesting... can you PM me details on the scanner and the company ?

[BluDomain]

I thought this was an interesting article involving production and a tight budget. It must be a balancing act of monumental portions.
http://news.stv.tv/entertainment/741...to-directors/#

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

A general number that fits all is not really realistic since there are many variables affecting the work. It would depend very much on the materials and the tasks that need to be performed. For instance, it is possible that while in some shots a tear that needs to be restored could be corrected with a more simple approach in the 2K realm that same tear may require much more detailed and thus longer work in 4K (such as with a whole set of patches) in order to insure the same level of quality. In other shots the same approach for a scratch may work in 2K just as nicely as in 4K. The color re-timing in 4K would certainly be much more expensive than in 2K; the handling of the files certainly also weighs much more heavily on the project than on a 2K. Still, I would think that the costs are much higher than the 30% re: scanning you mentioned. The 30% plus for a 4K upgrade is certainly interesting... can you PM me details on the scanner and the company ?

Thanks, this makes sense - the 30% was to get more orders in as otherwise the 4k capability would have been acquired in vain.

You got pm

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

Yeah, unfortunately. The Eastmancolor process of that era is certainly "somethin' else". Who was the actress again who said something like "I rather be caught dead than on Eastmancolor" ? I read the quote some years ago, but forgot who it was...

It’s interesting that what initially got Joshua Logan into thinking about innovative coloring choices for South Pacific, was the fact that he absolutely abhorred Technicolor.

This, because he felt that in Technicolor, the sky was too blue, the earth was too brown and the trees were too green. For instance, I’m sure Joshua would have freaked over the coloring done by Maxine (under the direction of the filmmakers) over at Pacific Title for Speed Racer…….

http://www.pactitle.com/
click on “DI”
then click on “video sample” and watch the sequences.

Anyway, because of his consternation with Technicolor in the 50’s, Joshua L. consulted with one of the great still photographers of the era, namely Eliot Elisofon, who advised him that if he shot South Pacific in “picture-postcard” Technicolor, that he should be shot. So, Eliot E. recommended that Joshua do anything to avoid South Pacific looking like a picture postcard and hence maybe try camera filters.

……and so began the long and interesting path of exactly how color filters came to be used on the South Pacific production of which I can elaborate further upon if anyone is interested, in the meantime, to put a long story short……..Josh got shafted.
A classic line from the DP for South Pacific, Leon Shamroy (also DP for The Robe), who, when first heard of the idea, said -
“What’s this c***sucking idea you’ve got about color” ?
Leon also got shafted by ‘the system’.

Leon Shamroy apparently had a mouth on him like a drunken sailor (but, he was a *****cat at heart ) and I would have paid to see him interacting on the set with an actor (C.B.) that has been in the news recently because of anger management issues, as Leon absolutely hated actors and had another classic line when referring to them….
”I’m ready for the b*stards”.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by BluDomain

I thought this was an interesting article involving production and a tight budget. It must be a balancing act of monumental portions.
http://news.stv.tv/entertainment/741...to-directors/#

A Fox Searchlight product that has already made it to Blu-ray and is flying under the radar of many home theater enthusiasts is Antwone Fisher.

Great story.
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=2014

Well worth at least a rental, as it reminds us that we all have something to be truly thankful for in life.
In regards to motion pictures eventually making it to the big screen for at least a somewhat respectable theatrical distribution, it was definitely a buyer’s market this year………….

http://theenvelope.latimes.com/enter...,5437188.story

[wallendo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

……and so began the long and interesting path of exactly how color filters came to be used on the South Pacific production of which I can elaborate further upon if anyone is interested, in the meantime, to put a long story short……..Josh got shafted.

I, for one, am very interested. I have always found the color filters used during the songs to be very distracting. The tropical scenery in the movie is breath-taking, and then all of a sudden these INTENSE filters kick in

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

A Fox Searchlight product that has already made it to Blu-ray and is flying under the radar of many home theater enthusiasts is Antwone Fisher.

Fox is really doing a great job lately with catalog titles (see reviews for Sideways and Office Space):

- BD50 even for shorter running times
- Very healthy bitrates (AVC @ 30Mbps can't be bad)
- Film-like look
- Less region coding (still there though: Little Miss Sunshine is region-free, but Sideways is region A)
- No longer $39.99 MSRP

****

edit: I clicked through to the Antwone Fisher Blu-ray on amazon and it turns out that you get $5 off if you order it together with The Secret Life of Bees (which just dropped in price to $20.99!). Damn you Penton, you made me buy two more movies!

[micks_address]

yes and lossless since the beginning with DTS Master audio.. i know there's some issues with european releases having DTS HR Audio.. but i havent come across any of those titles yet..

the region locking is a pain though.. i wish they would adopt a rule where only titles that arent released in the cinema worldwide at the same time are locked.. i can understand that.. but locking catalogue titles makes no sense..

Originally Posted by Grubert

Fox is really doing a great job lately with catalog titles (see reviews for Sideways and Office Space):

- BD50 even for shorter running times
- Very healthy bitrates (AVC @ 30Mbps can't be bad)
- Film-like look
- Less region coding (still there though: Little Miss Sunshine is region-free, but Sideways is region A)
- No longer $39.99 MSRP

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by wallendo

I, for one, am very interested. I have always found the color filters used during the songs to be very distracting. The tropical scenery in the movie is breath-taking, and then all of a sudden these INTENSE filters kick in

Well, I feel your pain but, keep in mind that a lot of people back then in the olden times rather liked the look of the imagery (including the filters) esp. over there on the sophisticated continent (i.e. Europe), if memory serves, regarding the overseas box office receipts.

I’ll have to honor your request with an installment type contribution(s) over time as it deserves several posts due to the involved nature of the story of the production and I wouldn’t want to omit/forget any colorful details as to the motivations and actions of all the characters involved. Especially since so much inaccurate information has already been posted in the past all over the internet regarding the whys, wherefores and how to’s of the color filters………a little elaboration may be needed for clarity.

For now, I’ve bolded a portion of your post for a reason. That being because Joshua L. felt that the overwhelming natural scenic beauty of Kauai would be too overpowering for the whole length of the film and potentially contribute to an eventual emotional numbness with the visuals (like watching porn for 2 hours straight, or so they tell me) and he hoped to somehow, in a daring way, create the visual effect of the stage show to remedy that and challenged his cinematographer to find a solution technically.

Be patient. I’ll post another excerpt when I’ve got more time.

P.S.
To our attending Brain Sturgeon we have here on staff –
An interesting aside for you may be the fact that Joshua L. passed away in the late 80’s from progressive supranuclear palsy, which I wouldn’t be surprised was misdiagnosed on initial presentation due to its rarity.