"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Bill Hunt]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

No, Bill. Not at all my opinion. An opinion I witnessed in others and tried to describe accurately when asked about it. I failed to adequately clarify that it's not my opinion and I'm a little shocked and chagrined that that fact wasn't inferred from

1) context

and

2) the absolute illogic of my doing it from the perspective of all the other people here who see me post every day and really ought to know by now that it wouldn't make any sense at all for me to do it.

Hey, I've said my peace. Or is it piece? HHmmmm... Anyway, I didn't mean to seem as if I was picking on you specifically. I just wanted to offer my perspective.

Anyway, let's end this format war discussion, shall we? We've all got enough gray hairs from the damn thing. Lay off Doctorossi too, guys. He stepped on a land mine that I don't think he meant to. Doctor, if we're ever in the same place at the same time, I'll buy you a beer. Cool?

BTW, guys... I'll try to answer a few questions over on my regular thread. And you can thank Penton for pulling me in here. He called me was I was making my morning coffee this morning and asked me to check in.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

Hey, I've said my peace. Or is it piece? HHmmmm...

Anyway, let's end this format war discussion, shall we? We've all got enough gray hairs. Lay off Doctorossi too. He stepped on a land mine that I don't think he meant to. Doctor, if we're ever in the same place at the same time, I'll buy you a beer. Cool?

Only if I can buy you one in return!

Thank you for your eminent rationality, Bill. It breaks my heart that you ended up spending some of your little time here feeling compelled to defend your position against an attack I never meant to initiate.

Yes, let's please all get back to talking about shiny silver Blu-ray discs!

[Bill Hunt]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Only if I can buy you one in return!

Thank you for your eminent rationality, Bill. It breaks my heart that you ended up spending some of your little time here feeling compelled to defend your position against an attack I never meant to initiate.

Yes, let's please all get back to talking about shiny silver Blu-ray discs!

Deal.

[Jeff Kleist]

How does Warner presenting Toshiba an ultimatum change the fact that they were the studio whose pull-out of the HD DVD format spelled that format's doom (as was their intent in doing it)?

Whether you intended to or not, the language you used is exactly the same lines that those still fighting the war used, and still do to this day. If it's unintentional, then I can accept that, but as you can see by the fact that Bill came here BEFORE his coffee was ready, it's not something that a lot of us who were down in the trenches take lightly, especially with the memories of the bullets whizzing by our ears on a daily basis still fresh.

I accept that you didn't mean it that way, and if you don't mind I'll join you for that beer

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

Deal.

So Bill, I see you've got thee ole site up and running again.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

I accept that you didn't mean it that way, and if you don't mind I'll join you for that beer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jgma--0WYU

or, for those that prefer a female vocalist …………
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY6N2vEA6pI

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Whether you intended to or not, the language you used is exactly the same lines that those still fighting the war used, and still do to this day.

I guess the best thing I can do is take that as a compliment because my goal in writing that post was to accurately get across to Warner the feelings/opinions I saw out there that I suspect may be discouraging some people from buying Warner classics on Blu. I guess I was a little too accurate and I didn't mean to abrade a sensitive patch.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

I accept that you didn't mean it that way, and if you don't mind I'll join you for that beer

I'd love to buy you a beer and if you introduce me to a good new one in the process, I'll buy you two.

[Doctorossi]

Now that we've cleared up that mess, it's time for me to make another little addition that'll surely ruffle some feathers.

<---------------


Now, I have "exposed myself, finally."

[Living Near Shamu]

Wow, I come, ask a simple question and stirred up a hornet's nest, lol. Sorry. However, I am glad to know that Penton still gets his blood flowing super-fast by these types of ... err... conflicts, lol

Penton, I don't know if you remember me asking this, but last year I asked if you could deliver an "insider" story on something that had happened with the format war that the normal public hadn't seen. You went on to tell the story about how the Lionsgate Prez was upset after he read in the news/web that his studio was probably the next one to be bought out because it was "small".

If I recall correctly, he was the one who went on to spill the beans about Warner going blu. Since its the one year anniversary of the end of this format war (albeit a couple of months late ), would you be willing to let us in on another tidbit that we never knew about? Maybe something that happened AFTER Warner laid the last nail on that coffin?

[Bill Hunt]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So Bill, I see you've got thee ole site up and running again.

Yeah, it was quite a saga, but we're finally good to go...

[Bill Hunt]

Originally Posted by Living Near Shamu

If I recall correctly, he was the one who went on to spill the beans about Warner going blu. Since its the one year anniversary of the end of this format war (albeit a couple of months late ), would you be willing to let us in on another tidbit that we never knew about? Maybe something that happened AFTER Warner laid the last nail on that coffin?

SOMEDAY... someone is going to have to reveal the REAL story and industry maneuverings behind Warner's final decision to go Blu-only. Related to which is, the real story behind all those rumors that Fox was THIS >< close to going HD-DVD only. (Hint: They weren't.) But that's a story for another day... probably many years from now! It's a dandy though.

[Living Near Shamu]

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

SOMEDAY... someone is going to have to reveal the REAL story and industry maneuverings behind Warner's final decision to go Blu-only. Related to which is, the real story behind all those rumors that Fox was THIS >< close to going HD-DVD only. (Hint: They weren't.) But that's a story for another day... probably many years from now! It's a dandy though.

Bill, I just remembered the one rumor about FOX too! Not that everyone here was worried but it was quite the stirrup in those days.

Any chance we might see a book in the near future? Something like "The Digital Bits: How the format war changed our view on meddling companies"

[Bill Hunt]

Originally Posted by Living Near Shamu

Bill, I just remembered the one rumor about FOX too! Not that everyone here was worried but it was quite the stirrup in those days.

Any chance we might see a book in the near future? Something like "The Digital Bits: How the format war changed our view on meddling companies"

Boy... there's a great book in that topic, but I don't think I'd touch it with a ten-foot pole. It'd be WAY more trouble than it's worth. The thing would sell less than a 1,000 copies and it would stir up a SERIOUS hornet's nest...

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

Boy... there's a great book in that topic, but I don't think I'd touch it with a ten-foot pole. It'd be WAY more trouble than it's worth. The thing would sell less than a 1,000 copies and it would stir up a SERIOUS hornet's nest...

Hi, Bill, welcome to the fun...

I actually came here to post something from your site regarding a matter I had discussed a few weeks ago:

From the talk about The Robe:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...09htfchat.html

"Mike and I decided to leave things the way they were originally. It is important to us, all of us in my opinion, to honor the original artistic achievements of the movie. For the same reason, we left the matte lines...but we did remove the wire rigging on a closeup of Marcellus' sword launching into a tree. It was too jarring, and maybe would have been less visible on vintage prints and projection gear."

Now, landmines aside, I do think it's kinda sad that the kneejerk reactions to (estemed member) Doctorossi bring up some of the more petulent and aggressive rhetoric that clouded this hobby during the heat of the so-called format war. Frankly, the hostility exhibited on -this- thread at times, and the dimissive attitude of the other "side" (and the supposed impunity of the Blu boys, magically free from any shenanigans, exagurations, or manipulative intent) shows that no matter how right some of you may have felt you were, this was never a blu=good guy/red=bad guy fight for anyone with a modicum of objectivity. Sometimes, in fact, both sides are full of schmucks, and equally full of people just trying to get the most enjoyment out of their hobby as possible.

Sometimes, if someone has a different opinion from your own, it doesn't mean they're inferior, or worthy of ridicule. Excluding (as mentioned above) those who had a vested economic and professional interest in this divide, the sheer BS exhibited by BOTH sides (and continuing at times, unfortunately, on this very forum) could/should be called out by any site that purports to be presenting an objective stance. To be honest, for a while both formats had elements that sucked, and those of us format neutral could see the advantages/disadvantages of each without becoming zelous or feeling that the only way to enjoy this hobby would be to treat it like some sort of sycophantic team sport.

I felt, as someone who felt there were advantages and disadvantages of -both- formats, that after Harry's "review" of the format that the Bits' response was needlessly reactionary, and seemed (to a third party interest) to overlook many of the issues and concerns that even strident fans of BD were suffering with, from loading times, profile confusion, lack of lossless audio support, etc., etc. The (seemingly) uncritical discussion of Michael Bay's retardation and subsequent retraction, for example, still stands as the apotheosis of idiocy, a shining turd at the heart of the debacle called "the format war".

The best thing for the Bits, IMHO, was the end of the war, getting back to doing what you guys do best. It's unfortunate that the last few days have exhibited here in this insider thread the same type of needles antagonism that seriously pissed of people that just wanted good films in HD, regardless of format.

At times, it was as rediculous as if people wouldn't go to a film in theatres shot on Fujifilm because they're a Kodak man...

All I heard for years about BD.com was that if you'd show up here and say the least bit critical thing about BluRay that you'd be attacked and/or banned for having a disenting opinion. This, of course, is rediculous, an exagurated attack upon a community of like minded users. At the same time, AVS certainly has had more than its fair share of draconian members and policies. Still, it's comments like those above that really get on my nerves, exposing how even a slight disenting comment (like, "maybe Amir's not such a prick and just had a view that disagreed with yours?") gets met with anger, ridcule, and often downright hostility.

IMHO, of course. Sorry to drag this back, but, what can I say, I'm just some schmuck that decided to pick both sides, warts and all.

I mean, hell, who WOULDN'T buy a player just to play Lebowski in highdef years earlier than many of those on this forum...

[PeterTHX]

Unfortunately in the format battle, being "format neutral" was the equivalent of selling weapons to both sides in a war.

If you want to go FUD for FUD there was far less on the BD side. No payouts for exclusivity. Incentives are not the same as the payout Paramount/DreamWorks received.

In short, the format war was bad for the player makers, bad for the studios, bad for retailers, and bad for consumers. It set back mass adoption by at least a year, and there is still some lingering confusion to this day. How can you think that it was nothing but a monopoly/money grab by Toshiba, given their latest "Netplayer" shenanigans, is crystal clear. At least Sony was gracious enough to give up on MMCD and improve and heavily market the fledgling DVD format, not to mention making top-quality VHS decks.

[Anthony P]

Microsoft's goal was always chaos IMO. Once they figured out that their technology wasn't going to be part of the game, and that HD media be a revenue source (HDi, VC-1 for most studios), their goal was to get this inconvienient stepping stone over with so people move to download services that use MS software, and hopefully pay them per-transaction royalties

yup, and Toshiba as well. That was what was so infuriating about the war. One side had a cool and interesting product and the other side was all about not letting it take root.

[Anthony P]

I guess my issue is with what seems to be an auto-contradictory element in Jeff's post. He describes Microsoft's strategy once they see their involvement in the hardware/packaged media aspect of the market start to erode and I fully agree with Jeff's characterization here. However, he starts by saying he believes Microsoft was always in it to obfuscate and I don't think this is true. If you look at Microsoft's history, their standard approach to a market sector involves an initial attempt at forcing a monopoly, followed by an attempt to confuse the market and re-direct consumers only once their grip on the sector is in jeopardy.

Maybe we're debating a fine distinction on a timeline and it's kind of semantic...

what you are missing is that MS did try "forcing a monopoly", more then once, trhey tried webTV, WMS and WMV-HD

webTV failed because it sucked
WMS failed because it could not legitimately be sold/advertised
WMV-HD because it was buggy, complex and studios did not trust MS

For MS pushing HD DVD with HDi/VC-1 was dual purpose
1) a format war slows growth and can even stop a new format from going mainstream (ergo buying time until DL can work and then saying "we need a replacement for DVD") on the other hand if BD goes mainstream then people/studios/companies won't be interested in a replacement for 10-15-20 and maybe even 30 years and what will replace it needs to be beyond BD.
2) It gives MS a show case (i.e. remember what I said about WMV-HD) yes LG released Terminator and there where a handful of other titles, but neither studios nor manufacturer trusted MS and where not convinced they know movies. If HD DVD would have stuck around a bit longer MS hoped that it could use it to say “look you saw we know movies, HD disks went no where trust us for DL, you use AACS which we helped create HDi for your menus and VC-1 for your encode”

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Living Near Shamu

Wow, I come, ask a simple question and stirred up a hornet's nest, lol. Sorry. However, I am glad to know that Penton still gets his blood flowing super-fast by these types of ... err... conflicts, lol

Penton, I don't know if you remember me asking this, but last year I asked if you could deliver an "insider" story on something that had happened with the format war that the normal public hadn't seen. You went on to tell the story about how the Lionsgate Prez was upset after he read in the news/web that his studio was probably the next one to be bought out because it was "small".

If I recall correctly, he was the one who went on to spill the beans about Warner going blu. Since its the one year anniversary of the end of this format war (albeit a couple of months late ), would you be willing to let us in on another tidbit that we never knew about? Maybe something that happened AFTER Warner laid the last nail on that coffin?

Well, not really after but, I can tell you about just right before the “official’ announcement, to give you a handle on how few people really were privy as to what was happening behind closed doors.

More than one Senior V.P. at WB bought an HD DVD player over Christmas because they were clueless or shall we say *insulated* as to the announcement of Blu-ray exclusivity prior to CES.

I was asked by a filmmaker (who many here are familiar with) awhile back to go on film (actually 4k RAW) to express my knowledge of the whole affair and I balked at the idea.
I don’t know if that project is still in a planning phase or if it has been shelved permanently.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Now that we've cleared up that mess, it's time for me to make another little addition that'll surely ruffle some feathers.

<---------------


Now, I have "exposed myself, finally."

Oh noes!
Say it aint so Docteur!
You have no idea how much Maxpower (Spurs) and other Premier League supporters are laughing at me now.

[Anthony P]

Geez. You guys really know how to kill a messenger around here.

Do you really think I'd spend so much time around here if my purpose was to resurrect a year-and-a-half-dead format-war and strike 'one more martyr blow for the good guys!'?

I mean... I may not have much of a life, but that's ridiculous!

you would not be the first. I think the issue is not that you are "a messenger" but the fact that someone would need to have a really distorted view to see it that way.

Let's face it anyone with a brain read the bits and could see that it was a neutral and just review of the situation. They never went out of the way to up-play BD, they just did not buy into the BS and state every week that things are about to change because Disney or LG or MGM or Fox or WB.... are about to drop BD.

On the other hand I think you do have a point there where some people that are not too bright who did hate the bits for telling them what they did not want to hear because those people bought into the HD DVD BS so heavily spread out on some forums. But I am sure as soon as the war was over anyone that fell in that group that is not totally brain dead realized that the bits where one of the few telling it as it was at the time and if they want to be smarter most likely started rereading it again to have an accurate view.

Now I am also sure (since there morons still posting that HD DVD will be back) that there might still be people dumb enough to still hate the bits because HD DVD deserved to win, but should anyone really care about someone that dumb?

just odd that someone would take up the mantel and fight for the dumbest of the dumb when the previous post was about not trusting sites that have proven they have no integrity (and don’t know what they talk about).