"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Anthony P]

Not if they capture it decoded from the output of a decoder/player.

why would you think that? does the capture totally change the nature of wha is captured? Not only would it be extremely easy to manipulate the data but even if we assume it is out of the captors controle if he captures on an i frame he would get an i frame and if he captures on a p/b frame it will be a p/b frame and if during the computation the decoder made a mistake it will capture that mistake (which migh or might not be visible in that frame)

even if you assume no ill intent and randomly and by luck he gets an i frame on X and then a p/b several frames after the I frame (with no visible errors) on Y the natural conclusion would be look how much less detail X has then Y

Now if we assume the guy knows this and decides to take several frames from X and Y and just focus on a fraction of the ones taken, then human nature will drive the person to pick the ones that support his pre drawn conclusion.

but that is not even my biggest issue of screen captures for other reasons then just for fun and why they are useless for serious examination

1) you have to have complete confidence in the integrity of the person who is braking the law and posting them. (OK no one cares if someone is doing a couple of screen grabs, but you must see the irony in it)
2) you have to assume he is not human (like I said before human nature will compel the person to post what he believes matches his perception.
3) most end up getting compressed (and so the compression comes into play)
4) if the person puts the full 1080p then it will be a very big file and pic (that most can't see on their computer) and so it is not good to analyse if you need to scroll
5) if the person has only part of a pic then he is directing you to something and point 1 and 2 come into play again.
6) some people do have their sets professionally calibrated but does anyone have that with their PC monitor?

[Agent Cooper]

A couple of questions for our valued Hollywood Insider:

Recently, I read that James Cameron had combined forces with Panasonic (the company supplies Cameron with equipment during the production of Avatar) to bring his next film into our living rooms in glorious 3D sometime in 2010 (Blu-ray of course). Panasonic well develop and release dedicated 3D capable Blu-ray players etc.

How's the filmindustry as a whole gearing up to this forthcoming transition/revolution? Where's the hardware manufacturers in all of this? Are the studios already planning how to integrate 3D into some of their future BD releases, or should Camerons/Panasonics joint venture be considered to be a sort of stand alone event at this time?

Second, any inside info of when we will see a glimpse of the first Avatar trailer?

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Hey Oliver,
Since you follow the *screenshot* threads over at *science* so avidly, could you please PM me the next time the screenshot king posts screen grabs of a Warner Blu-ray or a Warner DVD in those comparison thread thingees - which would imply permission to do so by the owners who host that forum.

I’m interested to know when he and the owners over there at AVS have grown a pair of cajones. - Purely for research purposes.

There is nothing to report as AVS got the Warner memo, too.
So it seems that both this site and the other one will have to stay cojones-free for a while

Imo it might be worthwhile to bring the topic up for the HTF chat on monday, but I would guess that of all people Mr. Feltenstein is not the one responsible for the restrictions on screencaps.

And I will try to phrase this carefully: I appreciate all forums that I am a member of and I would not want for even one of them to get into legal troubles because of some screencaps

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

1) you have to have complete confidence in the integrity of the person who is braking the law and posting them. (OK no one cares if someone is doing a couple of screen grabs, but you must see the irony in it)

Isn't reviewing a valid exemption from copyright? Or non-commercial research?
Aren't the screen grabs used for the purpose of reviewing a title's quality? Are screen captures for the purpose of reviewing a Blu-ray title - whether the story or the picture quality or other features a valid exemption to copyright? How does copyright affect the pictures of Blu-ray cases that you see on sites doing reviews too?

[Jeff Kleist]

6) some people do have their sets professionally calibrated but does anyone have that with their PC monitor?

I do, I have a pro-level CRT that's been calibrated by one of those image spiders you attach to the screen, that I borrowed from a friend's graphics dept

How's the filmindustry as a whole gearing up to this forthcoming transition/revolution? Where's the hardware manufacturers in all of this? Are the studios already planning how to integrate 3D into some of their future BD releases, or should Camerons/Panasonics joint venture be considered to be a sort of stand alone event at this time?

A 3D standard has yet to be accepted by the BDA, everyone is waiting to move forward for that. Panasonic's system is now backwards compatible with LCD shutter glasses for TV sync ports, so I'm all for it. Dolby, Samsung, and others have competing technologies in the running

Isn't reviewing a valid exemption from copyright? Or non-commercial research?
Aren't the screen grabs used for the purpose of reviewing a title's quality? Are screen captures for the purpose of reviewing a Blu-ray title - whether the story or the picture quality or other features a valid exemption to copyright?

Blu-ray.com uses a special system that does not violate copyright. The other sites are just ripping the discs for their snaps. Bypassing copy protection is illegal, no matter what the purpose

Screenshot issues are more a case of pissing off the studio, rather than something they can stop with legal action. The studio of course can cut off screeners if you don't comply

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by Agent Cooper

How's the filmindustry as a whole gearing up to this forthcoming transition/revolution? Where's the hardware manufacturers in all of this?

Can you tell us what is happening with the BDA and the meetings about 3D and the different hardware standards? Are they looking at taking the entire specs of particular manufacturer's 3D methods or could they be taking the best from different manufacturers and also adding other capabilities too? When will they be choosing the new format or finished specifying the 3D standard - before 2010? Are the hardware manufacturers planning on releasing players with their different ways of doing 3D before the BDA has made their decision?

[Stacey Spears]

Eastkhan,

If OPPO is unable to ship to you, let me know. As long as we can figure out the payment, I will personally ship a disc to you. I did a quick check on the USPS website and there are three affordable options, which include $4, $13 and $25 for shipping. The price depends on the speed of delivery. There is even a $2500 option is you want it bad enough.

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Blu-ray.com uses a special system that does not violate copyright. The other sites are just ripping the discs for their snaps. Bypassing copy protection is illegal, no matter what the purpose

Screenshot issues are more a case of pissing off the studio, rather than something they can stop with legal action. The studio of course can cut off screeners if you don't comply

I thought I read that the reviewers on blu-ray.com can take screen captures from the actual Blu-ray discs? Is this correct? If that's true, how do they do that without circumventing copy-protection methods on the disc? Or do they get sent Blu-ray discs without copy-protection? Unless all the screenshots get sent as images files directly from copyright holder of all the Blu-ray titles reviewed or they get sent versions without copy-protection, how do blu-ray.com get the captures without bypassing copy-protection on the disc? Or is circumventing copy protection methods okay as long as you have the copyright holder's permission?

[Jeff Kleist]

I thought I read that the reviewers on blu-ray.com can take screen captures from the actual Blu-ray discs? Is this correct? If that's true, how do they do that without circumventing copy-protection methods on the disc? Or do they get sent Blu-ray discs without copy-protection? Unless all the screenshots get sent as images files directly from copyright holder of all the Blu-ray titles reviewed or they get sent versions without copy-protection, how do blu-ray.com get the captures without bypassing copy-protection on the disc? Or is circumventing copy protection methods okay as long as you have the copyright holder's permission?

There are ways to do it without circumventing copy protection, and it's not my place to talk about how that is accomplished except to say that it's legal. If you have the copyright holder's permission, it still technically wouldn't bypass the DMCA, but since the same copyright holder would have to be the one to file a DMCA violation claim, the likelyhood of anything happening is non-existant.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by horseflesh

Hey Penton baby!
Do you ever check this out....
https://forum.blu-ray.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=31882
I feel a little bit specail as the 4th highest "normal person" (non-insider) poster
Penton-Man 1,811
WickyWoo 292
Jeff Kleist 232
Maxpower1987 181
Rob Tomlin 154
Doctorossi 142
dialog_gvf 138
horseflesh 122
Bobby Henderson 120

All I know is that if Jeff Kleist doesn’t become more loquacious, that doctorrossi character might overtake him in a couple of months and even be bumping my rear tire, since the docteur has had the throttle pinned since he’s arrived.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

penton, you should go visit yourself... It's free!

I did that last September and a fellow film dude recommended against it -
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=5416

I plan to heed his advice for the future, as it can be detrimental to a happy temperament. I find it more productive to delegate that duty to someone else that regularly visits there anyway and send me choice links for a laugh.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

why would you think that? does the capture totally change the nature of wha is captured? Not only would it be extremely easy to manipulate the data but even if we assume it is out of the captors controle if he captures on an i frame he would get an i frame and if he captures on a p/b frame it will be a p/b frame and if during the computation the decoder made a mistake it will capture that mistake (which migh or might not be visible in that frame)

even if you assume no ill intent and randomly and by luck he gets an i frame on X and then a p/b several frames after the I frame (with no visible errors) on Y the natural conclusion would be look how much less detail X has then Y

Now if we assume the guy knows this and decides to take several frames from X and Y and just focus on a fraction of the ones taken, then human nature will drive the person to pick the ones that support his pre drawn conclusion.

but that is not even my biggest issue of screen captures for other reasons then just for fun and why they are useless for serious examination

1) you have to have complete confidence in the integrity of the person who is braking the law and posting them. (OK no one cares if someone is doing a couple of screen grabs, but you must see the irony in it)
2) you have to assume he is not human (like I said before human nature will compel the person to post what he believes matches his perception.
3) most end up getting compressed (and so the compression comes into play)
4) if the person puts the full 1080p then it will be a very big file and pic (that most can't see on their computer) and so it is not good to analyse if you need to scroll
5) if the person has only part of a pic then he is directing you to something and point 1 and 2 come into play again.
6) some people do have their sets professionally calibrated but does anyone have that with their PC monitor?

(bolding by me)

^
This is a solid post and should be read by anyone who uses *screenshots* for more than just casual observation and discussion of a Blu-ray title.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

......... but I would guess that of all people Mr. Feltenstein is not the one responsible for the restrictions on screencaps.

You guess right!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

There is nothing to report as AVS got the Warner memo, too.
So it seems that both this site and the other one will have to stay cojones-free for a while

Well then PM me if there is ever a screenshot *pix* comparison of The Alps vs. Grand Canyon Adventure: River At Risk (both by the same IMAX production company) because I would enjoy reading some nonsensical speculation as to why the later is sharper.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Agent Cooper

How's the filmindustry as a whole gearing up to this forthcoming transition/revolution?

The new animation films are ahead of the curve in 3D. I’m looking forward to seeing more live action 3D capture. I believe that 3D done right will make most people fans if they were interested in seeing the subject matter in 2D to begin with.

The quality of the roll-out has to be superb;otherwise, 3D may end up taking one step forward and two steps back.

[blueshadow | Kosty]

Is there an industry consensus emerging that any 3D standard for Blu-ray would be compatiatable with current Blu-ray players or at least a majority of them with only one HDMI output, like the PS3?

[Anthony P]

Isn't reviewing a valid exemption from copyright? Or non-commercial research?
Aren't the screen grabs used for the purpose of reviewing a title's quality? Are screen captures for the purpose of reviewing a Blu-ray title - whether the story or the picture quality or other features a valid exemption to copyright? How does copyright affect the pictures of Blu-ray cases that you see on sites doing reviews too?

I am not a lawyer or anything like that, but from what I rad I don’t think screen grabs to post on the internet fall in the exceptions of the DMCA. The reason I added it was that I have an over developed sense of seeing the irony in a situation, and thought I would point it out. My understand of DMCA is that it would be illegal, but like jay-walking, someone is skirting the rules but no one really cares (and I am not saying any one should really care). I just thought I would point out the irony of showing how much faith someone has to have in the person ( since it is way too easy to bias a sample and way to easy to manipulate images) when he is playing at best in a legal grey area by posting screen caps

[Jeff Kleist]

I am not a lawyer or anything like that, but from what I rad I don’t think screen grabs to post on the internet fall in the exceptions of the DMCA

The act of posting them is not, the method of acquisition is what would run afould of the DMCA

[Anthony P]

The act of posting them is not, the method of acquisition is what would run afould of the DMCA

true, but the exceptions are task/circumstance based.

For example law enforcement agencies are allowed to brake/circumvent encryption on a criminals PC to build a case or stop a crime.

But a bit closer to the discussion, there is an exemption added in 2006 which states

Audiovisual works included in the educational library of a college or university’s film or media studies department, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of making compilations of portions of those works for educational use in the classroom by media studies or film professors.

So I would guess that if a university buys and holds in its collection some BDs like Batman, Dracula... and a professor is making a lecture to film students on compression and/or restoration, then he would be legally allowed to take screen grabs to show the students in the class room what he is talking about. On the other hand none of these sites are educational establishments, none of them have libraries (own copies of the content) and no matter how much self importance they give them selves the people taking the screen grabs are not professors educating paying students in a class room. So my guess is that the teacher getting the same screen grabs and making the same comments in a class room would not be braking DMCA (even though he is technically circumventing encryption just as much as the forum member) but the guy posting them on a site would be braking the law.

[Eastkhan]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Eastkhan,

If OPPO is unable to ship to you, let me know. As long as we can figure out the payment, I will personally ship a disc to you. I did a quick check on the USPS website and there are three affordable options, which include $4, $13 and $25 for shipping. The price depends on the speed of delivery. There is even a $2500 option is you want it bad enough.

Thank you very much, I'll let you know.

I want it bad enough, not sure about the 2500$ option though