"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Fair?

No, not fair.
If you read some internet forums you get the distinct impression that people who work in the business doing this stuff on a daily basis (for years) trend somewhere between incompetence/ineptitude to money hungry cheapskates.

The rare anomalies are hyper-exaggerated as to their frequency and the overall quality of the other Blu-ray software is given a brief thumbs-up, if any mention at all, because it’s not *fun* or internet stylish if one can’t nitpick. Perhaps we should all go back to a restoring or shooting sharp, unfiltered well-lit three 6-perf 35mm Full Aperture frames having a total negative of ~ 72mm x 27mm and only put those out on Blu-ray.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

I still think this debate can be had without the dehumanizing epithets

I agree. At this rate, I expect I'll need to wait another 5 years for the format war to really be over. Can we get out from under this hangover?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

Or to bring some postive aspects into the debate: From what I have seen lately with regard to non-animated releases Sony and Fox might as well handle ALL releases on Blu-Ray with their recent track record for both new and catalog titles
And while clearly the process that ultimatley leads to a great Blu-Ray release might be a complicated one that cannot easily be explained with the formula of no EE and no DNR why is it that some studios consistently get things right and others don't ?

See my above ‘hawk’ analogy.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

And to add to my previous post: Despite being somebody who might be considered a bit picky: Less than 5% of Blu-Rays from the big 6 (studios) that I watched since January 2008 were what I would call less than satisfactory in picture quality and this is a great quota by any standards - precentages for classic and catalog will be higher but still this is a very good overall quota imo.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Constitution 101

First, let me qualify my unprofessional analysis by admitting I've only been a member for 2 months now. The general impression I get from all the posts I've read is people are waiting for such-and-such a blu-ray to be re-released & done the "right way" the second time. I didn't write those posts, I just read them.......Again, just my two cents based on the large volume of film transfer posts I've read.

sharkshark, I’m bolding the above quote from Constitution as he just made my point for me.

Constitution, just watch the movies and don't let anyone tell you what you should like or not like and in their opinion why or why not because more often than not many are just plain wrong.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Blaumann

Thank you for this explanation. It's great to be able to read these insights from the "other", non-consumer side. This is valuable background information for any discussions that may "demand" better pq and "less processing".

Btw i completely agree: The vast majority of Blu-rays i've seen is stunning and simply a pleasure to watch. But then again i tend to get drawn into the films and "forget" to look for flaws...

You my friend are known as a cinephile. Generally, I find there to be much more enthusiasm in regards to motion pictures on those forums than ‘videophile’ forums although the later seem to always want to campaign the notion of how they are film purists and publicly reassure themselves of their purchasing decisions.......blah, blah, blah.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by cjamescook

Now, this is a great post!

If you play on my vanity, you’ll cause me to blush.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by BluDomain

Yes, but it is generally the same five or so posters that jump from
forum to forum twenty-four seven making multiple posts. Not a valid
consensus by any stretch. Sales is the only valid measurement, and
the Star Trek sales are going well.

Hell hath no fury like a red ant scorned.

Truer words could not be spoken.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Truer words could not be spoken.

... except for the questionable insinuation that the most vocal are all format-losers.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

I agree. At this rate, I expect I'll need to wait another 5 years for the format war to really be over. Can we get out from under this hangover?

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

... except for the questionable insinuation that the most vocal are all format-losers.

I've personally seen a lot of people ranting about bad PQ who were never "red ants", or HD DVD supporters either, so I'm not sure of the connection there myself.

~Alan

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

When Bill Hunt tells his readers to hold onto your previous disc of Terminator 2, you've got an issue that's potentially getting worse, not better.

I think T2 is a unique case.

That particular movie was at least triple or quadruple dipped on DVD and now the movie has its second go 'round on Blu-ray hitting store shelves. People who love this movie probably already have a copy of it on DVD and/or Blu-ray. So this is one of those cases where judging image quality is going to be of more importance in order to justify digging into the wallet to pay for an upgrade.

I was already concerned about the potential or lack thereof based on the T2 property changing hands numerous times over the years. Artisan handled the "Ultimate Edition" 2-disc DVD, but that company isn't around anymore. Somewhere it was mentioned the new BD of T2 would be sourced from the "director's approved HD master." But just what exactly does that mean? It says nothing about how old the master is (maybe it's the same source used for that old 2-disc ultimate edition version) or what methods were used in acquiring the film imagery.

Maybe home theater fans are so burned out on buying various versions of Terminator 2 that MGM figured it wouldn't be worth it to do some modern scan & DI treatment. Maybe MGM is saving that improvement for the triple dip that is almost certain to come in the way of the T2: 20th Anniversary Edition Blu-ray in 2011.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

I've personally seen a lot of people ranting about bad PQ who were never "red ants", or HD DVD supporters either, so I'm not sure of the connection there myself.

~Alan

If that’s the case, it certainly does not make them more technically qualified to critique the picture quality of any Blu-ray movie……….only less inherently biased to do so.

In the end, with their rants, they are not accomplishing any change in the policy or procedures of studios or content providers, all they’re ultimately doing is dissuading people like Constitution 101 not to view certain movies at all because they’ve been preconditioned by online rhetoric, that there is 'something technically wrong' with the high definition edition in the first place…….

that ^ , and of course some kind of online frustration catharsis for the individual ranters themselves.

Either way, it’s certainly nothing to be proud about.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Maybe home theater fans are so burned out on buying various versions of Terminator 2 that MGM figured it wouldn't be worth it to do some modern scan & DI treatment. Maybe MGM is saving that improvement for the triple dip that is almost certain to come in the way of the T2: 20th Anniversary Edition Blu-ray in 2011.

Lionsgate (formerly Artisan) is handling the T2 release.

MGM is in charge of T1, and WB, T3 (and T4).

~Alan

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If that’s the case, it certainly does not make them more technically qualified to critique the picture quality of any Blu-ray movie……….only less inherently biased to do so.

I think what we're trying to say, Penton, is that it's bad enough we have so many shouters running around half-cocked, without painting them all red and disgruntled on top of it.

Meanwhile, how does your lament about people turning others off to watching particular movies at all sit with the seemingly near-universal opinion of the Patton BD? Sometimes I feel like the only guy on the planet who can put that disc on and smile.

[Jeff Kleist]

I was already concerned about the potential or lack thereof based on the T2 property changing hands numerous times over the years. Artisan handled the "Ultimate Edition" 2-disc DVD, but that company isn't around anymore. Somewhere it was mentioned the new BD of T2 would be sourced from the "director's approved HD master." But just what exactly does that mean? It says nothing about how old the master is (maybe it's the same source used for that old 2-disc ultimate edition version) or what methods were used in acquiring the film imagery.

It's sourced from the last director approved transfer that was done for the Exreme Edition. The on-film resolution of T2 on average is lower than 1080p on average anyway. Just like with T1, Cameron is extremely busy with Avatar, and is not in the position to work on and approve new transfers at this time.

If you want the best T2 out there for image, right now that's the Geneon disc from Japan. If you want all kinds of cool new supplements, then Skynet is your bag

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If that’s the case, it certainly does not make them more technically qualified to critique the picture quality of any Blu-ray movie……….only less inherently biased to do so.

I wasn't arguing that.

I can't tell you how many complaints I've heard about "The Terminator" (I'm referring to the 1st movie released from MGM released by Sony), "Predator" released by Fox, "Rocky" released by MGM, and you're aware of the talk about "Bram Stoker's Dracula" regardless of how many times they have been "educated" about the film transfers. Personally, I own all four films mentioned above, and am quite pleased with the transfers... the first three due to the upgrade compared to other sources, and the fourth due to the "education" received here.

Don't get me wrong, I judge the look of my Blu-ray films myself, but it all comes from a uneducated/unqualified opinion... with a less than optimal setup compared to many on here... and for the most part, I'm happy. I COULD be happier with many of my WB releases, but aside from titles like "Twister," "Dark City," and "Face/Off," it's all just my opinion.

I just didn't get the connection between PQ complainers and "red ants."

~Alan

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If that’s the case, it certainly does not make them more technically qualified to critique the picture quality of any Blu-ray movie……….only less inherently biased to do so.

...indeed, and (wierdly) that's my more general point... slamming the messanger may well be the right thing to do, as of course is the keeping-it-all-in-perspective-and-buy-the-damn-discs agument. However, there are those of us that look to the likes of, well, YOU, one of the rare studio cats that are willing to wade into these murky waters and tell us like you see it, to help us make the call. I'm heartened, alas, by your calls to Warner, and sorry to see that, ironically, the messanger (you) is being ignored by a Warner exec/manager, yet the process that you're kvetching about is real and shouldn't go unnoticed. I never meant to imply that you were doing less than you could, just that RAH doesn't have (to my understanding) the same direct tie to a studio that you do. In other words, the message about getting the BD right may be accurate, but the "it's just that guy from Sony again..." (or whatever studio), unprofessional or not, would be damaging in the long term.

Rightly or wrongly, I'm the demographic you're doing all this hard work for - I don't fetishize codecs, bitrates, or formats... I'm a cinephile first, not a videophile or specophile, spending a rediculously large percentage of my income on this hobby. I've been burned in some cases with some transfers that really should have been better (ie, Face Off), but for the most part have bought discs knowing full well what I was getting into. I could care less about forum politics, or the musings of self-proclaimed experts.

That said, regardless of motivation, I see some titles just not worth the double/triple/quad dip, either from DVD or even the other HD format (case in point, I've actually got the European HD-DVD of T2 that I bought in France, and was hoping to replace it with skynet... now, alas, it's clear that they've not done a re-re-remastering, and that we'll inevitably get one sometime soon.) And that's not good, I should want to be replacing ALL my DVDs with BD, at least those that fit BDs strengths (ie., I'm in no rush to replace a shot-on-video TV show). Star Trek is a harder call, as while I can understand that not every title was treated the way Kahn was, it'd be nice if they would have treated TMP better. Still, I'll probably pick it up, taking all the negative AND positive comments into consideration and weighing the fact that, regardless, they'll be an improvement on my DVD copy, and they're films that I want in my collection.

I want to be ensured that something on BD will be top notch sound and vision, treated well and with respect, and not "dumbed down" with needless filtration. I look forward to when this hobby gets to the point where DVD did over the last several years, where I stopped reading DVD reviews entirely, confident that I'd be getting a title, even from catalogue releases, that looked as good as the format would allow. While it may be cost effective to use past-their-prime masters for more obscure films, when the likes of Trek, or T2, or Patton are treated poorly, we have reason, I think justifiably, to be at least mildly reticent about forthcoming catalogue titles, and look to experts, yourself included, to stear us away from missed opportunities, and to celebrate those titles that get it right, even if they're films we may never have picked up without hearing about it on this very thread....

[Constitution 101]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If that’s the case, it certainly does not make them more technically qualified to critique the picture quality of any Blu-ray movie……….only less inherently biased to do so.

In the end, with their rants, they are not accomplishing any change in the policy or procedures of studios or content providers, all they’re ultimately doing is dissuading people like Constitution 101 not to view certain movies at all because they’ve been preconditioned by online rhetoric, that there is 'something technically wrong' with the high definition edition in the first place…….

that ^ , and of course some kind of online frustration catharsis for the individual ranters themselves.

Either way, it’s certainly nothing to be proud about.

My deepest apologies gentleman. I didn't mean to kick the hornet's nest. Penton is absolutely correct-there's titles I've avoided due to the many sub-par reviews I've read(including Star Trek). The irony here is that I thought Patton was one of the best! It's the disc I use to show off my set up when I have friends over. Everybody w/o exception sez they can't believe how such an old film can look so good. Two of my friends went out and bought blu-ray players after seeing it! Yet that is the one people seem to be the most disappointed in(DNR). You'll have to excuse me now-I'm gonna go watch a John Wayne flick on VHS with my 1987 19" color General Electric...

[4K display]

Originally Posted by Constitution 101

What in your professional opinion is the main cause the studios don't always get the transfers "right" the 1st time? To an outsider it seems w/ modern technology there shouldn't be a large number of "bad-looking" blu-rays. It definitely appears to be the main source of frustration for blu-enthusiasts. Do they need to consult Penton/Digital Bits/etc. and come up w/ an industry standard that's satisfactory to video experts or something to that effect? Is that just a crazy suggestion? Maybe a consortium of some sort. The number of bad PQ reviews by this site's official movie-reviewer and all the posts on sites like this(AVS etc.) make me think the issue's coming to a head...

And whom might that be?

Last I checked there are at least 6 "official" reviewers here...

[Constitution 101]

Originally Posted by 4K display

And whom might that be?

Last I checked there are at least 6 "official" reviewers here...

Don't know-it's irrelevant to the issue whether it's 1 or 6 anyway...