"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

^
The above screenshots were posted on another screenshot site (other than the Beaver) with the caption…..

”The 2005 DVD shows more overexposed white blob garbage. How the hell does a hack "remastering" job like this pass quality control? The 2009 Blu-Ray isn't much better, and the dogs have turned blue! This shot does show how the 1999 DVD isn't perfect either, as it's way too dark - though it does show the most detail in the bottom portion of the frame.”

I realize that the above *screenshot scientist* loves to see as many steps as he can in the bottom portion of the frame (as shown in the ’99 DVD) and I also appreciate the fact that he did not have the opportunity to sit with Lazlo Kovacs, ASC during the remastering session to listen to the direction of this great cinematographer and anything I say would be dubiously accepted since Lazlo has since passed away but –

Perhaps this screenshot scientists should read Lazlo’s book entitled “New Wave King: The Cinematography of Lazlo Kovacs” and pay particular attention to the chapter on Ghostbusters which is based upon an interview from 1984 where he says ….”when the ghost appears we wanted to create this overexposed effect with everything bathed in light”.

Lazlo didn’t give a hoot as to how many stair-steps audiences could visualize in the bottom portion of the frame.
And as for “the dogs turning blue”, obviously when you alter the white balance, the mid-tones are going to change too.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Dan S.

What Penton said. As soon as people start discussing the superiority of color on a dvd over a BD, I quit reading what they have to say. I sincerely doubt the studios are being as careless as they would have to be in order to screw up as badly as some are inferring. It's not as if they are pumping out 100's of BDs at a time- they have time to get these right.


PS- Penton- Heading out on the MTB in a few for a great night ride, thought of you. I hope you're turning over the pedals enough to enjoy your autumn!

Work hard………play hard.
I love this time of year as SoCal is beginning to cool down to the point where you can really hammer without needing to carry a lot of water or energy drink to stay hydrated.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Penton,

Any word on whether "Inception" is going to be shot IMAX or 65mm? You mentioned something about this earlier but wondered if anything concrete has come about. IMDB is listing Super 35 with IMAX blow up.

Sorry Kris, I’ve been bound by a ‘gentleman’s NDA’ since posting the correct answer to this (i.e. the camera being used by Wally) back in August.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=468

[kefrank]

Penton,

I agree wholeheartedly with you on the ridiculous "science" of judging a Blu-ray transfer against a previous DVD transfer as the standard for what the film should look like.

That being said, I can think of at least one instance where comparing to the previous DVD should, at least, raise a flag that leads to further investigation on the original filmmaker-intended color timing. On the BD and latest DVD of The Shining, there are shots in which the tennis ball and some of Danny's toys are pink. In the earlier DVDs, in the 35mm print that I've seen, and even in the extra features of the BD, the tennis ball and the toys in question are yellow. I've raised this issue a couple of times here and at other forums, but for some reason it doesn't seem to gain much steam. Maybe I'm alone, but it takes me right out of the movie and I'd be very interested in an explanation from WB.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

and then often using that inherently flawed comparison to constantly insinuate and ‘debate’ that some operator/post facility screwed up, which seems to be the *fashion* these days.

I have no idea if this thinking is correct, but is it possible that operators at post facilities might have (in some cases) intentionally made the DVD versions BRIGHTER than they should have been due to DVD's limited contrast abilities compared to film?

~Alan

[Kris Deering]

How are DVDs limited in contrast compared to film?? You can get an infinite contrast out of DVD, the displays are what are limited.

I visited a post house a few months back and they were doing encodes and mastering and using a Christie D-Cinema PJ in a great room for visual decisions. I asked specifically how they handled blacks since the D-Cinema PJs have HORRIBLE contrast and medium to light gray blacks. He laughed and said he agreed and held up his hand to make funny hand puppets on the giant screen. He then pointed out the waveform monitors that they use for black that were in front of him on the console, just as Penton remarked on earlier.

There are plenty of BDs with raised blacks levels out there, I imagine they are that way for a reason.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

How are DVDs limited in contrast compared to film?? You can get an infinite contrast out of DVD, the displays are what are limited.

Whoops! My bad... I was not aware of that. I guess that's what I get for making a quick post while I'm taking a break from mowing...

What I was referring to was HD's ability to show more detail in dark scenes compared to SD. I was curious if some technicians/post houses might have "brightened" certain DVD releases to show more detail?

~Alan

[Kris Deering]

No worries Alan. Typically detail in darker scenes has more to do with the contrast abilities of a display and the gamma. The standard gamma in encoding is the same for HD and SD as far as I know, so that shouldn't change anything. Obviously BD has more resolution than SD, which always helps and the lack of compression artifacts also helps bring out a lot more detail.

[Bobby Henderson]

Isn't DVD authoring still stuck within the limits of NTSC or PAL "legal" colors?

One of the big things Blu-ray has over DVD is richer color and deeper contrast than what NTSC can handle. Lately some articles have been written about Blu-ray being able to present Black and White movies in a far better manner than DVD could.

[Dennis M]

Hi Kris,

I have a question for you in regards to setting gamma for displays.
My JVC RS35 came in last week and I had it calibrated. Currently it's setup with a gamma curve of 2.4. My current screen is a Stewart Ultramatte 150 92". Room is light controlled.

When calibrating your displays what gamma do you shoot for?

Thanks,

Dennis

[sharkshark]

Is it appropriate for me to use this thread to make fun of the fact that (my good friend) Dennis is using his sig to advertise that he owns a set of Elacs now?

Bastard...

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Is it appropriate for me to use this thread to make fun of the fact that (my good friend) Dennis is using his sig to advertise that he owns a set of Elacs now?

Bastard...

Would you please ask your good friend Dennis to post a few pictures in his gallery section? Based on the equipment list, it looks seems like the makings of a very nice HT. I would like to see how it's put together.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I read your review of The White Ribbon.
Nice.

At first glance, when folks watch the movie, they may speculate that the film was finished in B&W simply because the story is based in 1914 and the filmmakers wanted to recreate a ‘period piece’.
The intent was actually to create a strong abstraction and it was felt that a B&W palate was the best choice to achieve that.
I think Michael Haneke should be applauded for having the courage to do so.

Re: The White Ribbon ^
AFI FEST 2009 (Oct. 30 – Nov.7). Free tickets are available to all Festival movies (including The White Ribbon).
For more details, visit AFI.com., or call 1-866-AFI-FEST.

Additionally, The Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1054606/ ) has been selected as AFI FEST’s Centerpiece Screening Gala presentation. The film will make its U.S. Premiere at Grauman’s Chinese Theatre on Monday, November 2, 2009.

The film stars Christopher Plummer, Tom Waits, Johnny Depp, Jude Law, Colin Farrell and Heath Ledger in his final role. Director Terry Gilliam and actor Christopher Plummer are scheduled to attend.

A limited number of free tickets are still available for this red carpet gala.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

How are DVDs limited in contrast compared to film?? You can get an infinite contrast out of DVD, the displays are what are limited.

I visited a post house a few months back and they were doing encodes and mastering and using a Christie D-Cinema PJ in a great room for visual decisions. I asked specifically how they handled blacks since the D-Cinema PJs have HORRIBLE contrast and medium to light gray blacks. He laughed and said he agreed and held up his hand to make funny hand puppets on the giant screen. He then pointed out the waveform monitors that they use for black that were in front of him on the console, just as Penton remarked on earlier.

There are plenty of BDs with raised blacks levels out there, I imagine they are that way for a reason.

Not sure what Alen meant, but that is not completely accurate. Yes the absolute (what is defined as white and what is defined as black) is 100% display driven. But if we don't look at the absolute and move it to what is not exactly black (since complete black is never interesting- i.e. nothing to see, so why would anyone care) , the you add that digital, unlike film, has finite gradation and the colour depth is 4:2:0 and so detail can be more limited in dark scenes on a DVD


also on the flip side (and maybe this is what he meant) with Contrast, film is a plastic with an image imprinted on it and a bulb behind, white means, nothing there (completely transparent) black means black imprinted on it, but light will still manage to pass (like with old LCD's that had "grey blacks"), so they could show up as brighter in dark areas (i.e. our displays now have much higher contrast range then a decade ago and can be much darker then film)

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

No worries Alan. Typically detail in darker scenes has more to do with the contrast abilities of a display and the gamma. The standard gamma in encoding is the same for HD and SD as far as I know, so that shouldn't change anything. Obviously BD has more resolution than SD, which always helps and the lack of compression artifacts also helps bring out a lot more detail.

yup, but the added resolution is a double whammy, because the colour depth is 4,2,0 it has bigger implications in dark scenes.

for those that don't know what this is, since the days of colour TVs colour tends to be is defined in two specs chroma (how red/green/blue it is) and luminance (how bright/dark). This has to do with B&W images existed before colour. What was discovered was that we are much more sensitive to variations in luminance then chroma. So BW is saved by giving us what we tend to need (more detail in brightness then hue). Now 4,4,4 would mean each pixel has all the info, but 4,2,0 means that there is a lot less colour info then brightness


assuming each square in the final image is a pixel, the image at the lower right (just above 4:4:4) is correct , and the image over the 4:2:0 is what a 4:2:0 representation will look like. Now for most scenes this is not an issue for one we are much more sensitive to brightness then colour, and things don't tend to be pixel size checker boards of colour. On the other hand a dark scene will obviously be much more limited in luminance. This will mean that in dark scenes (where the lumainance is very close or exactly the same), you could get 1/4 the detail(i.e. just like the middle row but darker). so having a lot more pixels almost eliminates it (i.e. if I have 4x the pixels then I get rid of the issue that I get rid of the issue that I have 1/4 the pixels in colour)

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Isn't DVD authoring still stuck within the limits of NTSC or PAL "legal" colors?

One of the big things Blu-ray has over DVD is richer color and deeper contrast than what NTSC can handle. Lately some articles have been written about Blu-ray being able to present Black and White movies in a far better manner than DVD could.

I think it is more an optical illusion created by 4:2:0 and a lot more resolution.

[Dennis M]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Is it appropriate for me to use this thread to make fun of the fact that (my good friend) Dennis is using his sig to advertise that he owns a set of Elacs now?

Bastard...

I'm feeling the love.

[Dennis M]

Originally Posted by coolmilo

Would you please ask your good friend Dennis to post a few pictures in his gallery section? Based on the equipment list, it looks seems like the makings of a very nice HT. I would like to see how it's put together.

Hi Coolmilo,

I'll try to get some pics up in the next few days.
The main part of the HT is done. Now starting to work on the surrounding environment. There's always something to do in this hobby.
I actually get to watch some movies in between.

Just watched Midnight Express. Great film, and another well prepared blu-ray from Sony Pictures. Keep'em coming Penton.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I think it is more an optical illusion created by 4:2:0 and a lot more resolution.

That doesn't really answer the question.

The colors for the NTSC broadcast standard are muted compared the full 8-bit 16.7 million color RGB standard. I personally know this from having previously worked in TV production. In preparing on-screen graphics for TV we had to be sure to keep within the NTSC "legal" color range as well as create imagery with non-square pixels in mind.

Are movie studios having their SD DVD made with color schemes conformed to NTSC limits, or do they use the full bandwidth of 8-bit RGB and merely let the "non-legal" colors clip and posterize on old SD TV sets?

HDTV standards obviously have a wider color gamut range at least very similar in range to 8-bit per channel RGB. HDTV also uses square pixels.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Dennis M

Hi Kris,

I have a question for you in regards to setting gamma for displays.
My JVC RS35 came in last week and I had it calibrated. Currently it's setup with a gamma curve of 2.4. My current screen is a Stewart Ultramatte 150 92". Room is light controlled.

When calibrating your displays what gamma do you shoot for?

Thanks,

Dennis

Depends on the contrast capabilities of the display. In your case, 2.4 is a good goal. But most projectors just don't have the contrast capabilities of the JVCs. I have a R35 coming in myself!