"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Jeff Kleist]

ASSISTANT AntiChrist thank you very much

He owns an electronic store and was Toshiba's go-to poster boy for an indy retailer that loved the HD DVD

[mrpink134]

Ok I waited until the Hd format war was over before I bought a player, but why is there so much hate towards HD-DVD?

[Constitution 101]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

Ok I waited until the Hd format war was over before I bought a player, but why is there so much hate towards HD-DVD?

This oughtta be good...

[horseflesh]

Originally Posted by Constitution 101

This oughtta be good...

Wake me when it's all over.
Again.

[Jeff Kleist]

Why don't I just suggest you search posts with "Amir" in them from 2006-2008 and leave it at that?

[Penton-Man]

I keep getting these PM’s from people asking me if I think (confidentially) whether or not the HDTV mpeg-2 version of FOTR is ‘truly” better than the Blu-ray edition or, was the HDTV broadcast master sharpened and therefore essentially just *appears better*.

I don’t know for sure, so please stop with the PMs.

To make it crystal clear, by the time I get around to actually watching the theatrical versions, the extended versions will probably be streeting, so in the meantime, I refer you all to the reviews of Ken Brown, Bill Hunt, and all the other real-time reviews that have been noted and linked to on this thread as well as the main LOTR thread which we have here on this forum to give you as many opinions as possible.

Bottom line, I can not tell from viewing on my never been calibrated stinkin computer display in my private office by examining one or even a couple stinkin screenshots posted of some ‘seasoned’ dude with a beard, which is all I’ve seen and plan to see concerning the whole issue. The matter is not as easy as you guys assume it to be. If you don’t believe me or can’t appreciate that, then without posting some proprietary images which I’m frankly not at liberty to do, I’ll refer you to this mini-tutorial………..
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut.../sharpness.htm

Scroll down to the ‘seasoned’ dude with the grey shirt and sweater, look at the acutance/resolution comparison stills. It is *possible* (if very good sharpening tools are available and carefully applied) to make and think of the

Acutance: High....Resolution: High image- as being analogous to the ‘possibly’ sharpened HDTV version of FOTR and the -

Acutance: Low….Resolution: High image- as being representative of an essentially unsharpened Blu-ray edition which is being perceived by many as less detailed compared to the HDTV version.

For those who love to look at facial textures in older dudes then click on this link…
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...sharp-mask.htm
and if your attention spans are short, then just scroll down and read the “REAL WORLD EXAMPLE” and do the mouse over thing going from ‘Original’ to ‘Sharpened’ as the author suggests.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

By remaining on both sides, at least in the short term they could enjoy participation in advertising and other funds, while at the same time tapping the entire, at the time, small, HD customer base. As the speed and quantity of releases grew, it became unprofitable and unproductive to continue to support both. The same went for the retailers that chose for them which way things were going to go. Once you filled that one aisle at Best Buy, someone was getting pushed out of bed

Annoying that said studio crippled their BD releases by optimizing for the 8-track of HD. Then announced that dual-format disc that never materialized. When I saw that, for a bit there I thought we were in for a long, bitter, destructive war. Even then, a year and a half plus was too long.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Fair enough, point taken.

However, humbly, it's "Vis-à-vis".

ps. Watching golf on TV is dumb, but this has been a pretty sick hour or so of Masters madness, and it does look purdy in HD...

Je ne parle pas francais, and neither do many here, so sometimes I drift into a form of aMERican and phonics called “Meronics”.

Jeff, there are 2 locations showing live 3D coverage of the Masters in your neck of the woods.
http://community.sonystyle.com/sstyl...01170769272902

Someone should also pass the above link ^ along to Josh (our news guy), since he’s in the Arlington, VA. area.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

Ok I waited until the Hd format war was over before I bought a player, but why is there so much hate towards HD-DVD?

You ever had an army of red ants come into your house at the time (Blu-ray software forum of *science*) when they had their own giant ant hill (HD-DVD software forum of *science*) to enjoy, and bite on you, all over, all day long when you’re simply trying to enjoy your own thing?

Basically forcing you to leave and find a brand new humble abode to live? (which turned out to be Blu-ray.com ). At least, that’s it in a nutshell for many here, i.e. it was the act of being forced to flee government condoned oppression in the pursuit of happiness…..something that every cinephile should be able to do anytime, anywhere ‘war’ or not.

Add to the fact that many of the most vocal *screenshot scientists* have a past life of being avid red ants....which is hypocritical in itself, given the technical limitations of HD-DVD compared to Blu-ray.

[DenonCI]

Penton,

Phil made quite a run today. The secret to golf on TV is a device called TiVo. I watched the entire broadcast in 45 minutes

I'll do the same tomorrow, although I'll probably take more time on the back nine

[mrpink134]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You ever had an army of red ants come into your house at the time (Blu-ray software forum of *science*) when they had their own giant ant hill (HD-DVD software forum of *science*) to enjoy, and bite on you, all over, all day long when you’re simply trying to enjoy your own thing?

Basically forcing you to leave and find a brand new humble abode to live? (which turned out to be Blu-ray.com ). At least, that’s it in a nutshell for many here, i.e. it was the act of being forced to flee government condoned oppression in the pursuit of happiness…..something that every cinephile should be able to do anytime, anywhere ‘war’ or not.

Add to the fact that many of the most vocal *screenshot scientists* have a past life of being avid red ants....which is hypocritical in itself, given the technical limitations of HD-DVD compared to Blu-ray.

I understand everything now. Thanks. So that means eric.exe is one of those guy? Is that also the reason why that some of the most vocal people against LOTR blu ray kept bringing up the screen shots and saying that bill hunts review was bias? (I was not one of them I like his reviews) Well its a good thing I waited and went to this forums first

[horseflesh]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Why don't I just suggest you search posts with "Amir" in them from 2006-2008 and leave it at that?

Or why not just leave it altogether??
It's been over 2 years, I don't understand why anyone (especially someone who presumably didn't have a real vested interest in the outcome) is still showing anger about what was essentially some multi-billion dollar Japanese corporations competing with home video optical disc formats (I also think the use of the word "war" is/was crass).
There's been plenty of water under the bridge since then, why noy just let the whole sorry affair lie?

[Jeff Kleist]

Penton, no sporting event will get me to drive half an hour to see it in person, let alone 3D on a store shelf, sorry . Plus the Sony style store, if memory serves is in the yuppie area of the mall where you have to have something Burberry on to enter It's changed quite a bit since you roamed those halls

cutance: High....Resolution: High image- as being analogous to the ‘possibly’ sharpened HDTV version of FOTR and the -

Acutance: Low….Resolution: High image- as being representative of an essentially unsharpened Blu-ray edition which is being perceived by many as less detailed compared to the HDTV version.

Totally forgot. Didn't a similar situation happen with U-571? The HD DVD was sharpened, but the Blu-ray was vanilla and they went ape?

Horseflesh and Oliver check your PMs.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by horseflesh

Or why not just leave it altogether??
It's been over 2 years, I don't understand why anyone (especially someone who presumably didn't have a real vested interest in the outcome) is still showing anger about what was essentially some multi-billion dollar Japanese corporations competing with home video optical disc formats (I also think the use of the word "war" is/was crass).
There's been plenty of water under the bridge since then, why noy just let the whole sorry affair lie?

Lemme guess, you bought HD DVD?

[MetalMike666]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You ever had an army of red ants come into your house at the time (Blu-ray software forum of *science*) when they had their own giant ant hill (HD-DVD software forum of *science*) to enjoy, and bite on you, all over, all day long when you’re simply trying to enjoy your own thing?

Basically forcing you to leave and find a brand new humble abode to live? (which turned out to be Blu-ray.com ). At least, that’s it in a nutshell for many here, i.e. it was the act of being forced to flee government condoned oppression in the pursuit of happiness…..something that every cinephile should be able to do anytime, anywhere ‘war’ or not.

Add to the fact that many of the most vocal *screenshot scientists* have a past life of being avid red ants....which is hypocritical in itself, given the technical limitations of HD-DVD compared to Blu-ray.

Originally Posted by mrpink134

I understand everything now. Thanks. So that means eric.exe is one of those guy? Is that also the reason why that some of the most vocal people against LOTR blu ray kept bringing up the screen shots and saying that bill hunts review was bias? (I was not one of them I like his reviews) Well its a good thing I waited and went to this forums first

Wow ... I also just learned a lot, so double thanks! As background, I'm a relative noob to HDTVs and Blu-ray ... got my first HDTV a little over 2 years ago and my first Blu-ray player & movies a little over 1 year ago (yes, sadly that means all I had was HD cable for a year ). I originally discovered the AVS forums while researching my first HDTV purchase and I didn't discover Blu-ray.com until a year later when I got my player/movies for Christmas .

I only discovered this thread within the past month, ironically thanks to someone mentioning it in the headache-inducing LOTR thread here (it may have been SquidPuppet ... if so, many thanks). I started by reading this thread with posts dated about one month ago. I can't believe how much I've learned in such a short time, including:

1) What DI means, more or less.
2) Different interpretations of a movie "master".
3) That I was steered wrong somehow about not purchasing a movie I love (Bram Stoker's Dracula) due to "supposed" bad video quality (could it have been the oft-mentioned 'screenshot scientists' ?).
4) Great info about sharpening tools (and the potential impact on the cable vs. Blu-ray LOTR debate).
5) That there was/is great animosity between HD-DVD & Blu-ray camps (like the previous poster, I was just about to ask why all the hate ... but now will leave it alone and realize how LUCKY I am to have missed it all).

6) That there is also some animosity between some (most?) on this forum and AVS .. and that's where I'd like to ask a question.

If I read this correctly, some of this animosity seems linked to the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray nastiness/dirty tricks/arrogance/whatever-you-call-it and also some of it is due to the 'screenshot scientists' incorrect judgment of Blu-ray movie video quality. This extends to some Blu-ray movie reviews & video quality threads on AVS.

But I've mostly used AVS for researching hardware (HDTVs, Blu-ray players, AVRs, & speakers). In the short time I've been following Blu-ray, I'd like to think that I've now learned to look at as many Blu-ray movie (software) reviews as possible, take many with a grain of salt, and rent before purchase if I'm unsure (having found this thread earlier would have helped).

Q) Do folks here have an issue with AVS overall (including the hardware forums), or is it mostly with regards to Blu-ray software (movies)?

Sorry for the long post, but I never want to use just one source for information and will continue to use both forums, and I was surprised to hear of hard feelings about this other forum (though given my naivete about the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray stuff and 'screenshot scientists', I guess that's not surprising).

Going back to 'lurking and learning' mode now .

Thanks again,

Mike

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Lemme guess, you bought HD DVD?

Lemme guess, you didn't?

Horse, well written post.

For those that care, yeah, short answer is (politics aside) that Robert Zhan was, during those tumultuous times, a fairly decent go-to guy that provided lots of info regarding the Tosh units. At that time, the only manufacturer of players was being, well, "Japanese", in the sense that (as per common business practices there) they were very reticent to engage publicly regarding issues, firmware updates, etc. (Lest anyone suggest that this comment is derogatory, I'm simply speaking of the cultural differences that pervade even to this day... Observe who the last 10 years of Sony have unfolded under a "western" regime). In short, he was/is a guy that runs a store that sold a bunch of stuff to a bunch of people that wanted to buy his stuff, and helped people out even if they didn't buy from him.

Additionally, his store (Value Electronics) is/was a sponsor of AVS but not a sponsor here, if memory recalls. Thus, he was even further caught up in the politics of the whole shenanigans, and in turn, for many, helped mark the entirety of the "other" forum with being shills for HD-DVD, while BD.com, naturally, was simply the forum where free and open discourse was encouraged without banning users or engaging in censorship, and there never was an agenda or bias that set forth any solid dogma.

At least, I think that's what's supposed to be the prevailing narrative, it's often hard to keep track.

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by MetalMike666

Q) Do folks here have an issue with AVS overall (including the hardware forums), or is it mostly with regards to Blu-ray software (movies)?

Not to answer for everybody, but there are -certainly- many threads on AVS that are useful. Many of the technical sections remain vital, be they regarding equipment or setup.

Judging AVS by the screencap threads is short sighted, just as judging BD.com by the software threads would be equally unfair.

Both forums are free to visit, naturally, and I recommend not succumbing to the politics and openly explore the many sections of each. For me, the technical sections of this forum pale compare to AVS (I come here to banter with the ever patient Penton, and the usual suspects), as this really is the last vestige of what was for a brief period of time a truly engaging interaction with a wide variety of "insiders". Penton's forthright answers and provocative comments have driven some million page views to this section of the forum, and he's perpetuating something that started (and was subsequently abandoned) at AVS, namely, cutting through the crap to hear from the people that actually know what the hell they're talking about.

So, if you don't mind the advice, continue to use AVS for your hardware needs (along with some of the sections here), and come to Penton's thread on a regular basis, it's by far the most entertaining (and pedagogical) thread on BD.com, and, in a weird turn of fate, the thread most open to honest differences of opinion expressed with respect and a sense of decorum.

Not bad for a guy that likes silly two-wheelie racing and takes pics of conniving wild beasts best known for their love of ACME paraphernalia...

[sharkshark]

Katz, on "fake 3D"
http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...=1&ref=bd_film

I had the weird pleasure of having JK in the room when I quizzed the filmmakers of Antz about their films overt communistic overtones. In today's political climate I'm not sure that film could get away with its (ironic, one assumes) allusions to "the workers controlling the means of production".

Plus, I'm not sure it's aged quite as well as Bug's Life, a film that might one day be re-purposed for a 3D version (see what I did there? It's ALL connected!)

Additionally, they're now starting to advertise the "Cameron/Pace" 3D camera system (based on a sony body, no less) in trailers for OTHER 3D films:

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/04/10/re...merons-camera/

As for "fake" 3D, take this quote:

We've seen the highest end of (3D) in "Avatar" and you have now witnessed the lowest end of it (in "Titans"). You cannot do anything that is of a lower grade and a lower quality than what has just been done on "Clash of the Titans." It literally is "OK, congratulations! You just snookered the movie audience."

The act of doing it was disingenuous. We may get away with it a few times but in the long run, (moviegoers) will wake up. And the day they wake up is the day they walk away from us and we blew it.

...frankly, this "fake" 3D is as disingenuous as, well, "fake" surround soundtracks, and "fake" High Def releases, using substandard masters and slapping "High Definition" on it as if that, in its entirety, does the trick.

I live in a country where Alliance releases old 1080i transfers on Blu in lieu of new releases, meaning even for reasonably recent films, I as an educated consumer have to remain on my toes. Is the casual movie goer really going to parse the difference between a glorious new master or a re-purposed older transfer? How about choosing their ticked based on best practices of 3D conversion? What happens when these discs get taken home, and 3D spans from excellent implementations to headache inducing, utter crap?

Yup, it's all going to get worse before it gets better...

[Eternal_Sunshine]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

For those that care, yeah, short answer is (politics aside) that Robert Zhan was, during those tumultuous times, a fairly decent go-to guy that provided lots of info regarding the Tosh units. (...) In short, he was/is a guy that runs a store that sold a bunch of stuff to a bunch of people that wanted to buy his stuff, and helped people out even if they didn't buy from him.

Yeah, that and he dissed Blu-ray 24/7. Without any financial incentive or barely hidden agenda, I'm sure.

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Additionally, his store (Value Electronics) is/was a sponsor of AVS but not a sponsor here, if memory recalls. Thus, he was even further caught up in the politics of the whole shenanigans, and in turn, for many, helped mark the entirety of the "other" forum with being shills for HD-DVD, while BD.com, naturally, was simply the forum where free and open discourse was encouraged without banning users or engaging in censorship, and there never was an agenda or bias that set forth any solid dogma.

Sarcasm aside, no matter how many times you try to tell your personal narrative of the format war (being that both sides were fighting the same way), it's just not true.

You've still yet to find one example where a Blu-ray insider (on AVS or here) has ever told outright lies to make HD DVD look bad. While Amir (and yes, also John Z) did this regularly.

But, of course:

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Lemme guess, you didn't?

Well, being a 20-year industry veteran at the time here's what I saw:
I saw a format with higher capacity, higher bandwidth, supported by the vast majority of electronics makers, supported by most of the studios (including exclusively Disney), and then I saw another format basing it's technology on older formats (DVD), and a monopoly of hardware makers.

Gee, I wonder why I picked what I did?

For those that care, yeah, short answer is (politics aside) that Robert Zhan was, during those tumultuous times, a fairly decent go-to guy that provided lots of info regarding the Tosh units. At that time, the only manufacturer of players was being, well, "Japanese", in the sense that (as per common business practices there) they were very reticent to engage publicly regarding issues, firmware updates, etc.

Or perhaps that they couldn't get anyone else to buy into their patent grab. It's hard to license something that seems less than perfect.

In short, he was/is a guy that runs a store that sold a bunch of stuff to a bunch of people that wanted to buy his stuff, and helped people out even if they didn't buy from him.

He also spread a lot of FUD and outright disinformation concerning BD. Where I come from we call that "lying".

Additionally, his store (Value Electronics) is/was a sponsor of AVS but not a sponsor here, if memory recalls. Thus, he was even further caught up in the politics of the whole shenanigans, and in turn, for many, helped mark the entirety of the "other" forum with being shills for HD-DVD, while BD.com, naturally, was simply the forum where free and open discourse was encouraged without banning users or engaging in censorship, and there never was an agenda or bias that set forth any solid dogma.

blu-ray.com never was "sponsored" by Sony or Panasonic or Philips or Pioneer, etc. AVS let the reds run wild, lest they bite the hand that feeds them.

So you can see why there's a lot of mistrust.