"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DenonCI

The improved color saturation really helps too highlighting the great costume design. Purples and reds are much more vivid and flesh tones look lifelike versus the pasty (more like sickly) tones on the original disc.

I’m convinced that is true after your and John’s review.

But that’s not the point. The point is not whether or not you personally like the changed color palate for the home reincarnation or whether it’s more lifelike, natural or kind to the production design.

The point is…..do you think it’s acceptable for a filmmaker to do some tweaking of colors, contrast and such with the knowledge that the home video edition will be different from the appearance of the original theatrical version, which by all accounts, he was happy with in the first place?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The point is…..do you think it’s acceptable for a filmmaker to do some tweaking of colors, contrast and such with the knowledge that the home video edition will be different from the appearance of the original theatrical version, which by all accounts, he was happy with in the first place?

It's possible he wasn't entirely happy with the color grading done at the time since it was relatively new tech back in 2000.

The Watchowskis did something similar with the HD version of The Matrix, where scenes in the Matrix were green but had an adverse effect on the rest of the palette, making details mushy. By the time the sequels rolled around 4 years later, they had perfected the look they wanted. When they released them on HD video, the first film was then regraded to match the rest of the trilogy.

[Penton-Man]

War has been declared!...
http://www.arabia.msn.com/Entertainm...y/2206351.aspx

^ I personally am skeptical that it will even amount to a skirmish but, I like the attention getting header.

[Doctorossi]

I'm just going to lean back and crack a fresh can of worms...

Ridley Scott performed a "modern" re-timing on Blade Runner: The Final Cut, as well. The reaction to that, in my anecdotal awareness, involved a lot of quiet grumbling, but ultimate resignation to the idea that this version of the film (with its newly produced/altered footage) is, ostensibly, a new product. Many seemed to be quite satisfied that, while the new timing may not have been to their preference, at least the previous cuts, featured on the BD release, retained their earlier look.

An hypothetical bubbles up: Had this new Gladiator disc also featured a new cut of the film and been billed not as a replacement disc, but as an 'add on' disc for your existing set, rendering the final product a similar package to the Blade Runner set (ie. a new cut with new color timing + an "archival" theatrical cut with old color timing and less "optimized" video quality), would the reaction to the new color timing be any different? Would (the global) you feel any differently about the release?

One thing we can count on for the future is that we will continue to discover yet more new sub-flavors of revisionism.

That and I will continue to spend too much time thinking about this crap.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by JamesN

Anyone near NYC around that same time should check out the real 3D experience:

http://www.filmforum.org/pdf/ff2_cal88_FINAL_3.pdf

Real 3D …..you want to talk real 3D .

On display in L.A.(http://www.siggraph.org/s2010/) this past week -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BFKC...layer_embedded

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’ll see what I can do.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In regards to your love of large format theatricals, I’m surprised you didn’t mention Andrew Oran, whose on the Speaker List and if memory serves was rubbing shoulders with some of you guys at last year’s Berlinale’s 70mm Retrospective.

Well, I was actually pretty sure that he would have something to do with at least one of the two 65/70mm topics I remember talking to him about the first ever 8k scan when they were working on Baraka and I was surprised back then that they used an IP which he told me was due to cost considerations as a cleanup of a scan from the negative is much more costly.

I did attend a few panel discussions at the Berlinale but Andrew was not, at least not visibly to me, at one of them.

I did have the chance however to talk to Schawn Belston after one of the panels and Grover Crisp was also in attendance and said a few words before the screening of Lord Jim.

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

One thing we can count on for the future is that we will continue to discover yet more new sub-flavors of revisionism.

Unfortunately!
I would have liked to keep this to a minimum.

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

That and I will continue to spend too much time thinking about this crap.

same here

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^ I personally am skeptical that it will even amount to a skirmish but, I like the attention getting header.

Hmmm. No comment on my Matrix comparison?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mark antony

I guess my original assumption was correct then! Personally speaking, If Ridley's happy with it, so am I.

What if Luc is happy with it (i.e. The Professional), are you then also happy with it?

Esp. given the fact that the contrast, actually everything about that Blu-ray transfer, is to Luc’s specifications. SPHE took delivery of the HD master from his team and only did some additional cleanup to remove extra minor dirt here and there, which is why it looks slightly better (in our opinion , anyway).

[blueshadow | Kosty]

Color difference issue aside, the new version of Gladiator looks clearly superior to my eyes, if these screenshots are representative at all. At any rate I did the phone call and my old disc 1 is in the mail so I'll see for myself soon enough I guess. Whether how or why they did it the way they did, I'm glad they are doing this for whatever reason as I don't give a damn about the politics involved. I hope Sony would do the same if for some reason as I appreciated the re release of The Fifth Element way back when years ago.

http://i26.tinypic.com/349f6kn.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/13zv0a1.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/2d7gdwn.jpg
http://i31.tinypic.com/1tapox.jpg
http://i31.tinypic.com/2rh0ec5.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/21jt4pt.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/10ckx1u.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/o0tco4.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/2z8rnm9.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/jj9pgy.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/s5x11w.jpg

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Hmmm. No comment on my Matrix comparison?

Sorry, I’m just not familiar enough with the Matrix. I have to defer to other Matrix connoisseurs here.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

That and I will continue to spend too much time thinking about this crap.

Well, like Avatar bringing to the public attention some otherwise unrecognized binocular vision problems in some folks, which are readily treatable and can lead to real world benefits in the workplace as well as one’s personal activities, maybe we can find another healthful productive avenue for the color discrepancy discussion then.

Take the test and see if you pass.
http://www.maniacworld.com/color_blind_test.htm

[DenonCI]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, it’s good to hear confirmation that your friend John isn’t suffering from some form of color blindness but, I question whether there is as much red push in the 2010 version as was posted on that set of screenshots which OliverK linked to here…several pages back, as I still don’t trust dem screenshots, even for evaluating static things like colors.

Can you run that scene in real time on your calibrated display and see if the color change is as dramatic as it is in that screenshot comparison?

Yes...I'll do that this weekend.

[DenonCI]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’m convinced that is true after your and John’s review.

But that’s not the point. The point is not whether or not you personally like the changed color palate for the home reincarnation or whether it’s more lifelike, natural or kind to the production design.

I think it looks more natural and the film has never looked better.

The point is…..do you think it’s acceptable for a filmmaker to do some tweaking of colors, contrast and such with the knowledge that the home video edition will be different from the appearance of the original theatrical version, which by all accounts, he was happy with in the first place?

Yes...it's his film to do with as he likes. The DVD of this movie always looked like crap and the Blu-ray released last year didn't look much better. When you see some scenes back to back, it really illustrates how bad this title needed a new master. Also, the extended scenes now flow with the rest of the film and don't stick out like a sore thumb anymore.

[sharkshark]

Kwai!

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sorry, I’m just not familiar enough with the Matrix. I have to defer to other Matrix connoisseurs here.

You don't have to be familiar with that particular film, only that it came out in the same time period (1999 vs. 2000) that Gladiator did, and that the color grading technology was still pretty primitive compared to what we have today. Mr. Scott may have just taken advantage of more modern tools, just as the Matrix producers did a few years ago.

[Sweetmeats]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

http://www.maniacworld.com/color_blind_test.htm

I should hurt you for that.

[neo_reloaded]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

You don't have to be familiar with that particular film, only that it came out in the same time period (1999 vs. 2000) that Gladiator did, and that the color grading technology was still pretty primitive compared to what we have today. Mr. Scott may have just taken advantage of more modern tools, just as the Matrix producers did a few years ago.

You have an interesting point, but unfortunately it's orthogonal to what Penton is getting at. If he does have personal experience or familiarity with Gladiator, he certainly hasn't said in what capacity - his point is unrelated to actual experience, in fact. He's saying that the two sets of screenshots do not have matching color palettes, yet no one is complaining about the hypothetically revised colors on the newer BD. So either this is an example of screenshots not providing correct information (which Penton would consider a win), or the screenshots are correct and people's lack of complaining is indicative of their inconsistent adherence to "original intent" (which Penton would ALSO consider a win against the 'usual suspects'). And if the latter case is true, he can then spin it to make them look hypocritical for criticizing Sony releases that were accused of having revised color / contrast timings (Dracula, Ghostbusters, and Leon come to mind immediately).

Not to say I agree with that - I feel that now everyone who ever dared to use a screenshot is now lumped in with the obsessive nitpickers like Kram Sacul or whoever. If this Gladiator revision talk was a jokey thing to pick at those "Dracula truthers"? Hey, that'd be funny. But, the way I perceive it here at least, is that this is being taken deadly seriously, and the argument is pointed directly at a much wider group, including plenty of people who were never in the obsessive screenshot nitpicker category but are now being treated as such. But this is just my interpretation of this argument, perhaps (hopefully) I'm wrong.

[Penton-Man]

That’s a nice assumption because with one winning debate, I guess I could rid us forever of those cockroaches and their *science*.

And this has nothing to do with any of our Insiders. Well, actually, except for Charles, because madshi noted that he sat in the “mastering” session(s). This discussion isn’t restrictive to Gladiator either, per se. After the John Puccio and now DenonCI’s review, I think we’ve basically established that the 2010 Blu-ray of Gladiator is of superior quality in terms of detail compared to the 2009 version. I think that’s pretty much a given, as I trust Denon’s eyes.

We’ve now evolved into more important matters and future titles being brought to the Blu-ray format. I’m wondering......if a filmmaker is happy with some tweaking of the color, contrast, gamma, etc. of a Blu-ray rendition (not extreme as in The French Connection example), is that now an acceptable practice to "enthusiasts" (or I think might be better described as 'collectors"), if that manipulation is contrary to the look of the original theatrical presentation?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Sweetmeats

I should hurt you for that.

I should ask for a consult fee now.

My *unofficial* recommendation is not to reveal anything of the sort to your local DMV.....and be very careful at those intersections with stoplights.