"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

Agreed. You know, it's fascinating. Having visited Universal personally to talk about the specific issue of the image quality of their Blu-rays, I was shown a couple of scenes from the Back to the Future Blu-ray - the first film only. I don't know if what I was shown was cherry-picked, but it was played from check discs and it looked terrific. Grain was visible, and no digital smoothing was in evidence. If other portions of the transfer suffer from it, well... that's a shame. I hope that's not the case. Regardless I'm going to wait and see the discs for myself. What I do know is that no matter what the discs look like, there will be image scientists and format-come-lately experts who will be hyper-critical of it...

I don’t think you’re being quite fair to the screenshot scientists because despite a long history of hating any and all “dnr” with hundreds if not thousands of posts disparaging its usage and Jim Cameron public admitting/boasting that *significant* grain reduction was utilized for the production of the master for Blu-ray, after only a handful of screenshots were posted on the internet, that single act almost immediately quelled feelings and further scientific discussion that Aliens had in fact not been ruined by overzealous grain reduction…..based on a couple or several screenshots.

If fact, I was told that in one of your columns, you, yourself used those same handful of Aliens screenshots to make the same point.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

Hell, even when trusted eyeballs in film restoration say a BD transfer is great, there are still plenty of people on the various forums who say the release is a travesty - witness the critics of Criterion's fine recent Blu-rays.....

Who dat?.....Bob?

I’m lost here as I don’t get out as much as I would like to. Is there a new Blu-ray Criterion assault going on or are we talking about this? (thanks goes to sharkshark for the link)....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18572830 from this thread -
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233309

^ As a footnote, to my knowledge, michel hafner is one of the only ‘experts’ I know of who posts on the regularly read consumer forums like Blu-ray.com, AVS, HTF, etc. who has actually written his own digital processing filters
(including motion estimation) for actual use in filmmaking.

[wallendo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Wally, seems you’re old enough to remember how The Last of the Mohicans looked in your local theater back in the day.

I haven’t caught the recently released Blu-ray but, I’m wondering if by your recollection of the theatrical presentation back-in-the-day, if the Blu-ray incarnation has been brightened/ contrast ‘contemporized’ for modern audiences or if it has stayed faithful to the dim *look* which garnered Dante Spinotti an ASC nomination for Best Cinematography by fellow colleagues.

As an aside, talk about a troubled production back in the day. If I get the time, later on, I’ll hunt up a link to describe what I mean.

I never saw Mohicans. But, I remember B&W films looking a dull gray. Of course I was probably less than 10, and anything that wasn't Disney animation looked drab to me.

[sharkshark]

Hrm. Finally saw SOCIAL NETWORK. Very good, well worth seeing, not the mindblowing, decade-defining work that many are claiming it to be I fear.

INCENDIES, on the other hand, is a pretty remarkable film, I highly recommend it (from the director of POLYTECHNIQUE, that I've yet to see, alas). INCENDIES won best Canadian pic at TIFF, is our Oscar nom for best foreign (it's in French and Arabric), and, unlike in some previous years, is I think worthy of the honour of consideration.

FWIW, I had a much more positive/visceral reaction to BLACK SWAN and 127 HOURS, and even ANOTHER YEAR was stupendous, if we're handicapping favs for Oscar this year. But, hell, the way TRUE GRIT is shaping up, I might have to switch votes.

Speaking of, sad I won't be able to see TRUE GRIT, the John Wayne version, on BD before the Coens. Stupid DVD...

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

My stance on the taboo topic of screenshots, is that if a transfer is seriously botched, multiple screenshots can usually point it out quite well...... but people can also cherry-pick a shot or two that they can find very minor flaws in that are undetectable while watching the Blu-ray in its' entirety while in motion.

Screenshots are best used when supporting observations/impressions after seeing the finished product..... There have been plenty of early screenshots that represent the poor finished product, but there have also been many that have left me scratching my head after watching the Blu-ray, and subsequently thoroughly enjoying it.

I totally agree with you a film (or Blu-ray) is in motion and to pick on a specific frame and blow it up to show a difference is not realistic. I have seen some bad transfers - such as some early releases done in mpeg2 (which in itself can be good) but the transfers did not look any better than the DVD. Can a transfer be improved? - probably some can but my objective is to enjoy the Blu-ray not find faults which cannot really be seen during motion.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

I heard about the Star Wars 3D thing on the Stern show...... and yes, they're going in order (of film, not of their theatrical release) so by the time the 3 that most people really care about are released...... 3D will be old-hat.

I just may wait for star wars to be released as a hologram.

[Constitution 101]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Hrm. Finally saw SOCIAL NETWORK. Very good, well worth seeing, not the mindblowing, decade-defining work that many are claiming it to be I fear.

INCENDIES, on the other hand, is a pretty remarkable film, I highly recommend it (from the director of POLYTECHNIQUE, that I've yet to see, alas). INCENDIES won best Canadian pic at TIFF, is our Oscar nom for best foreign (it's in French and Arabric), and, unlike in some previous years, is I think worthy of the honour of consideration.

FWIW, I had a much more positive/visceral reaction to BLACK SWAN and 127 HOURS, and even ANOTHER YEAR was stupendous, if we're handicapping favs for Oscar this year. But, hell, the way TRUE GRIT is shaping up, I might have to switch votes.

Speaking of, sad I won't be able to see TRUE GRIT, the John Wayne version, on BD before the Coens. Stupid DVD...

I read many reviews of Social Network and didn't get the impression they thought it was mind-blowing. I agree w/ you that it's definitely worth seeing though. The one thing about it that no one can take away is really keeps you intrigued FOR THE ENTIRE MOVIE. That is so refreshing and rare these days...

[Penton-Man]

Since this is for a noble cause with all proceeds going to Team Fox for Parkinson's research (http://www.teamfox.org/siteapps/pers...9PRIeIVIhM1JwF)

it deserves a special heads-up….http://www.weregoingback.com/Were_Go...sary/Home.html

[sharkshark]

You know me, conflict adverse, wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt, blah blah blah. But I found this pretty amusing (actually only knew about the kerfuffle from the 'Bits thread here)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=326

Originally Posted by FendersRule

Yes.

Hrm. Raw print, eh? I think that'd be cool, just set the scanner on "auto" and give us the neg burned onto BD. That's all that's required, right?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

You know me, conflict adverse, wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt, blah blah blah. But I found this pretty amusing (actually only knew about the kerfuffle from the 'Bits thread here)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=326

Wow, I flipped back to the previous page and it seems things really heated up over there on AVS with not one, but two moderator warnings. I guess folks have a real passion for this set.

Even more interesting and relevant is that an old and certainly not “format-come-lately expert” showed up to chime in. I’m talking about Bjoern ….http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post19300874

For those unaware of the internet history of videophiles, I would easily say that 3 writings have been quoted, referred to or linked to by posters on AV boards over the years far, far more frequently than any other single sources related to DVD’s and high definition software media, including both HD DVD and Blu-ray, which is a testament to the technical acumen of the authors . Although, the articles themselves are a bit dated (esp. in terms of the current practices of some studios) these days, still, they reflect a rare knowledge and experience on the part of the writers.

In particular, I’m referring to Bjoern’s classic paper on EE….http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm
along with his partner Michel’s companion article on DNR and lastly Matt Cowan’s article from ’03 on the value differences between 2k and 4k scanning for Digital Cinema theatrical presentations…Matt going on to become the Chief Scientific Officer for RealD and subsequently churning out dem 3D presentations .

Anyway, good to see Bjoern make an appearance on some board, any board, as I was beginning to think he became a monk in the Himalayas or some such place and gave up movie watching altogether.

[Penton-Man]

^
Bill, I’m hoping that your Universal prognostication for the future…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/3840054-post1172.html

fares far better than your WB prognostication from ’08…https://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-di...ml#post1036822

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

FINALLY posting, as per request, my writeup on the Springsteen/Norton interview I attended at TIFF:
http://filmfest.ca/2010/09/15/maveri...-by-ed-norton/
enjoy!

And back at you …..
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/...news/#39560345

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Wow, I flipped back to the previous page and it seems things really heated up over there on AVS with not one, but two moderator warnings. I guess folks have a real passion for this set.

I got booted from the thread for this:

What would you call basing your purchasing decisions on single frame screen caps (out of the 2500 plus frames of a 105 minute film) captured by someone you don't know, with equipment & software that you don't know, that may display completely different from what you own?

The complaining and hyperbole is obnoxious.

Those who resort to petty insults with those who disagree with their "expert" opinion (those "experts" never have handled a piece of film or sat in a telecine bay or mastering suite) is just plain sad.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by wallendo

I never saw Mohicans. But, I remember B&W films looking a dull gray. Of course I was probably less than 10, and anything that wasn't Disney animation looked drab to me.

Well, I saw The Last of the Mohicans (1992) back in the day and I believe I have a pretty good recollection of the imagery, including how *dark* it appeared to theatrical audiences….also memory reinforced from a later cinematography workshop by Dante Spinotti in which he revealed more esoteric principal photographic nuances like how he lit the famous waterfall scene and shot on what non-Kodak stock, problems with fogging of the viewfinder on humid days,etc. So, with that in mind, and being the Michael Mann fan that I am , I watched the Blu-ray incarnation last evening with a small invited group of friends/family.

When it comes to past Michael Mann/Dante Spinotti cinematic collaborations for the look of the imagery they were trying to achieve, it seems folks can be very judgmental in their PQ analysis of the Blu-ray transfer, when in reality, with something like Michael Mann’s work, it can be quite a bit more complex than….*since I don’t see much shadow detail it’s a lousy transfer*, or, *it could have looked better* <- you know all the typical cookbook comments by armchair compressionists and telecine operators which surely are to be posted online somewhere…if they haven’t been already.

Anyway, to my eye, the Blu-ray version looks like a very accurate representation of the theatrical fare and for those who might not have seen the motion picture in the theaters back-in-the-day, I would suggest reading the chapter entitled The Last of the Mohicans in Steven Rybin’s book – “The Cinema of Michael Mann” in which, if memory serves, he quotes either Mann or Spinotti in which they state that they purposely used as little artificial light as possible on the shoot. Heck, Mann even comments in the Blu-ray supplemental extra about the intended darkness of the imagery describing one of the dimly lit background interior shots….a daytime interior.

Since, in parts, this movie can be rather challenging (for one, the waterfall sequence) material to encode, a few times during watching the movie, I flipped on the bitrate meter on my PS3 (which drove the audience nuts ) and I’ll tell you that the Fox folks certainly didn’t skimp on the average or max bitrates. Wow-za!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, with that in mind, and being the Michael Mann fan that I am ...

Michael made me a fan very early on with his work but, this scene made me a fan for life ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRTSp...layer_embedded

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I got booted from the thread for this:

That makes no sense to me at all . But of course, many times I don’t understand the issuing (or lack thereof) of yellow and red cards for some players in soccer either.

Anyway, screencaps cut both ways. Peter, do you or others think that posting a few screenshots showing obvious grain particles, necessarily rules out significant digital noise reduction (dnr) artifacts, which many folks seem to conclude with their knee-jerk assessments?

Hardly…..as -

#1
Home viewers have no baseline (as to thee original sharpness of the lens used for that shot, such as an Arri Ultra Prime vs. a Cooke zoom) or, just as importantly, how much grain was there in the first place and it’s only with playback in realtime that you will identify the unsightly smearing/blur effect.

And, #2
Those sneaky engineers/mathematicians are incorporating Regrain tools into the same digital coloring software (Arri's collaborative software being the latest, of note) to give the *perception* of the “film look” to imagery which adds no real detail at all. Similar to the digital sharpening tool giving the *perception* of sharper images, when in fact, likewise, they add no real detail.

[DenonCI]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

That makes no sense to me at all . But of course, many times I don’t understand the issuing (or lack thereof) of yellow and red cards for some players in soccer either.

I agree. Just last weekend one of my players was given a yellow card for supposedly tripping a player when they both made impact with the ball at the same time. Then later in the game an opposing player chest bumped and then pushed one of my players and the ref swallowed his whistle and must have eaten his yellow and red cards for dessert!

[sharkshark]

FYI, just saw a digital project of APOCALYPSE NOW REDUX, presumably the same "print" being used for the BD. It was damn pretty, but the SOUND (at our new "Lightbox" venue) was spectacular.

It was an evening hosted by Walter Murch, and he was wonderfully generous with his time, spending some 90 minutes (after the 3 1/2 film!) answering questions. A hell of an evening, some great tidbits from the man.

Tomorrow he's sticking around town to give a chat about the state of cinema, so if anybody's in town I highly recommend checking it out.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

FYI, just saw a digital project of APOCALYPSE NOW REDUX...

As the Blu-ray transfer seems to be taking fire, I’ve been conscripted by a fellow Michael Mann fan to do a short tour of duty in our Blu-ray movies –North America forum in order to defend The Last of the Mohicans… http://mubi.com/notebook/posts/1234

I must depart the club for a few moments to post where the cast includes hundreds….https://forum.blu-ray.com/blu-ray-movies-north-america/

Iceman, I’m looking forward to a Blu-ray.com promotion check!

[Penton-Man]

Okay, I posted my 2½ cents over there, now back to the regular show.