8K discussion thread

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Correct. The 2019 8K Z9G is only the second TV in Sony's history to use the well respected "Black Light Master Drive", but it does not dim each LED individually like the Z9D did.

The Z9G's black light local dimming does perform very well, but I also wish they employed the local dimming down to the individual LED and did not use the X-Wide Viewing technology. However, the 4,000 Nit peak luminance with no HDR tone mapping needed makes HDR content look very natural and different than any other TV can produce.

I think that high peak luminance makes it a must to have the original BMD as well as not having the X-wide view tech. It still boggles me how Sony decided otherwise. It's almost as if they deliberately sabotaged the Z9G's performance, it could have been a real knockout on all fronts.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Black Light Master Drive or Backlight Master Drive? I wouldn't wanna use a TV with a Black Light Master Drive in my bedroom, lemme tell ya.

Get rid of the X-wide or have it so that it can be turned on or off (did I imagine seeing that sort of feature on another brand of TV recently?) and employ the proper zone-level BMD and then I'd start to seriously consider one of the Sony 8K's. Well, once it costs three-quarters of what it does now because I ain't paying 13 grand for a TV.

How would that work turning wider viewing angle tech off? I thought it was an additional layer applied so it's always there and cannot be disabled? They should just get rid of it altogether though. Why make things unnecessary complicated anyway?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DJR662

How would that work turning wider viewing angle tech off? I thought it was an additional layer applied so it's always there and cannot be disabled? They should just get rid of it altogether though. Why make things unnecessary complicated anyway?

I cannot remember what TV it was for (maybe one of the new Vizio Quantums?) but their wide angle mode does something to the pixels, like dimming certain ones down.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Black Light Master Drive or Backlight Master Drive? I wouldn't wanna use a TV with a Black Light Master Drive in my bedroom, lemme tell ya.

Get rid of the X-wide or have it so that it can be turned on or off (did I imagine seeing that sort of feature on another brand of TV recently?) and employ the proper zone-level BMD and then I'd start to seriously consider one of the Sony 8K's. Well, once it costs three-quarters of what it does now because I ain't paying 13 grand for a TV.

Stating the obvious, but the size doesn't help matters there. Once they have an 8K set out in the more common 75", 65", maybe even 55" (Samsung did it - though if 8K is exclusive to the Z9H then there won't be a smaller size model than 65", going on the D and F) sizes, things will be different.

Of course, if this hypothetical Z9H still incorporates X-Wide Angle, that will have you hissing like Christopher Lee's Dracula.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I cannot remember what TV it was for (maybe one of the new Vizio Quantums?) but their wide angle mode does something to the pixels, like dimming certain ones down.

Well, if it can be disabled completely and it has no negative effect on contrast/black level whatsoever, then I guess I wouldn't mind wider viewing angle tech being on board for those who would like such a thing (I personally have zero need for it).

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

Stating the obvious, but the size doesn't help matters there. Once they have an 8K set out in the more common 75", 65", maybe even 55" (Samsung did it - though if 8K is exclusive to the Z9H then there won't be a smaller size than 65", going on the D and F) sizes, things will be different.

Of course, if this hypothetical Z9H still incorporates X-Wide Angle, that will have you hissing like Christopher Lee's Dracula.

Sadly I have a feeling we haven't seen the last of Sony's X-wide Angle...

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by DJR662

Sadly I have a feeling we haven't seen the last of Sony's X-wide Angle...

It will be most interesting to see what Sony show off at CES.

Something I don't really know is, how was X-Wide Angle received among the wider masses? Well, the % of the masses that buy TVs like this, anyway. The Z9F was surprisingly short-lived, maybe because of the backlash that particular "feature" got? And then the X950G only used it on the 75" and 85" models...

Of course, it's also possible these TVs were/are selling fine, and the average owner doesn't care or even appreciates it for their particular situation (family gathered all around).

We'll see.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

It will be most interesting to see what Sony show off at CES.

Something I don't really know is, how was X-Wide Angle received among the wider masses? Well, the % of the masses that buy TVs like this, anyway. The Z9F was surprisingly short-lived, maybe because of the backlash that particular "feature" got? And then the X950G only used it on the 75" and 85" models...

Of course, it's also possible these TVs were/are selling fine, and the average owner doesn't care or even appreciates it for their particular situation (family gathered all around).

We'll see.

I've seen plenty of people over at AVS bigging up the tech, some of them even insist on it being absolutely mandatory for 65" and up VA panels.

[Robert Zohn]

Interestingly, Sony only uses the "X-Wide Angle" on the 75"+ class X950G TVs. The 55" and 65" X950G are the normal VA panels that are best when viewed straight on.

[REPLAY]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Interestingly, Sony only uses the "X-Wide Angel" on the 75"+ class X950G TVs. The 55" and 65" X950G are the normal VA panels that are best when viewed straight on.

I want a Sony 85" Would get the 950G today if it did not have the x-Wide Angel.
Waiting to see what Sony does at CES. Might have to go with the 85" 900F. But I would like the latest model. I do have the 65" 900F and very happy with it but would like a bigger screen.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

It will be most interesting to see what Sony show off at CES.

Something I don't really know is, how was X-Wide Angle received among the wider masses? Well, the % of the masses that buy TVs like this, anyway. The Z9F was surprisingly short-lived, maybe because of the backlash that particular "feature" got? And then the X950G only used it on the 75" and 85" models...

Of course, it's also possible these TVs were/are selling fine, and the average owner doesn't care or even appreciates it for their particular situation (family gathered all around).

We'll see.

The average person still buys DvD, and thinks a Netflix stream is true HD. I don't think they'd even notice the loss of contrast from off axis viewing.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by REPLAY

I want a Sony 85" Would get the 950G today if it did not have the x-Wide Angel.
Waiting to see what Sony does at CES. Might have to go with the 85" 900F. But I would like the latest model. I do have the 65" 900F and very happy with it but would like a bigger screen.

The problem with an 85" VA panel is that even when you sit dead center, the tv is so wide that edges of the tv will wash out and lose color/contrast and Wide-screen bars can also turn gray. The wide angle filters prevent this from happening, though Sonys implementation has a harsher effect on the contrast than Samsungs version and is not as effective.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by ray0414

The problem with an 85" VA panel is that even when you sit dead center, the tv is so wide that edges of the tv will wash out and lose color/contrast and Wide-screen bars can also turn gray. The wide angle filters prevent this from happening, though Sonys implementation has a harsher effect on the contrast than Samsungs version and is not as effective.

Stupid question time. Does 4K resolution become more visually apparent on an 85" screen vs 65"? Or does it just look the same, but on a larger screen size?

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by ray0414

The problem with an 85" VA panel is that even when you sit dead center, the tv is so wide that edges of the tv will wash out and lose color/contrast and Wide-screen bars can also turn gray. The wide angle filters prevent this from happening, though Sonys implementation has a harsher effect on the contrast than Samsungs version and is not as effective.

I would like to see for myself if this really is such an issue on an 85" VA panel.

One of the people on AVS I was referring to in my previous post claimed that his 75Z9D exhibited the issues you are talking about. Apparently it was so bad, that he would never buy another VA panel without wider viewing angle tech.

I never had these problems in such a way with my own set, so I decided to conduct some test with my 75Z9D by taking different seating positions on my couch while pulling up test patterns and also watching/pausing scenes from different movies. Long story short: yes, if you really look for it you can see a slight drop in color on test patterns and paused scenes in the corners of the screen depending on where you are seated. But it is only actually noticable while you move from one seating postion to another and even then it is negligible. In other words, it is not something you would notice under normal viewing conditions and while actually watching real world content. IMO it was just hyperbole on his part and just an excuse to justify Sony's X-wide view tech.

Now don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to admit that both the 65" and 75" Z9Ds have extremely narrow viewing angles, but it is only a problem if you do not sit dead center within a certain area (a very small price to pay for such a set and I always sit dead center anyway).

So for 65" and 75" sets at least, wider viewing angles are a complete waste IMO, especially if it means the contrast/black level will take a hit. I wonder if the 85" BMD prototype that Sony showed at CES 2016 had any problems to such an extent that it would ruin the picture and what about the 100" Z9D then? Personally I very much doubt it...

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Interestingly, Sony only uses the "X-Wide Angel" on the 75"+ class X950G TVs. The 55" and 65" X950G are the normal VA panels that are best when viewed straight on.

Originally Posted by REPLAY

I want a Sony 85" Would get the 950G today if it did not have the x-Wide Angel.
Waiting to see what Sony does at CES. Might have to go with the 85" 900F. But I would like the latest model. I do have the 65" 900F and very happy with it but would like a bigger screen.

I don't know, X-Wide Angel sounds pretty intriguing to me.

Obviously I'm aware it's a simple typo.

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

The average person still buys DvD, and thinks a Netflix stream is true HD. I don't think they'd even notice the loss of contrast from off axis viewing.

That would go under "doesn't care," then.

Originally Posted by ray0414

The problem with an 85" VA panel is that even when you sit dead center, the tv is so wide that edges of the tv will wash out and lose color/contrast and Wide-screen bars can also turn gray. The wide angle filters prevent this from happening, though Sonys implementation has a harsher effect on the contrast than Samsungs version and is not as effective.

Originally Posted by DJR662

I would like to see for myself if this really is such an issue on an 85" VA panel.

One of the people on AVS I was referring to in my previous post claimed that his 75Z9D exhibited the issues you are talking about. Apparently it was so bad, that he would never buy another VA panel without wider viewing angle tech.

I never had these problems in such a way with my own set, so I decided to conduct some test with my 75Z9D by taking different seating positions on my couch while pulling up test patterns and also watching/pausing scenes from different movies. Long story short: yes, if you really look for it you can see a slight drop in color on test patterns and paused scenes in the corners of the screen depending on where you are seated. But it is only actually noticable while you move from one seating postion to another and even then it is negligible. In other words, it is not something you would notice under normal viewing conditions and while actually watching real world content. IMO it was just hyperbole on his part and just an excuse to justify Sony's X-wide view tech.

Now don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to admit that both the 65" and 75" Z9Ds have extremely narrow viewing angles, but it is only a problem if you do not sit dead center within a certain area (a very small price to pay for such a set and I always sit dead center anyway).

So for 65" and 75" sets at least, wider viewing angles are a complete waste IMO, especially if it means the contrast/black level will take a hit. I wonder if the 85" BMD prototype that Sony showed at CES 2016 had any problems to such an extent that it would ruin the picture and what about the 100" Z9D then? Personally I very much doubt it...

This is one of those "pick your poison" things, I think. VA panels are what they are, and when you're sitting relatively close to a large panel this is an inevitable trade-off and it's on the individual to choose what's most important to them.

If you value deep blacks and high contrast ratio above all, then the Z9D's approach is for you. If you want to be able to move around and don't want to/can't sit right in front of the TV at all times, or a slightly washed out picture on the outer edges of your 75", 85" or bigger TV bothers you, then the Z9F and Z9G are better.

Something I've also noticed is that it can depend on what kind of content someone primarily uses their TV for. People who are mainly/all about movies - such as our friendly neighborhood Geoff D, and I think also you, DJR662 - tend to prefer the Z9D, and strongly dislike X-Wide Angle. On the other hand, the people I've seen highly praise the Z9F and say they'd take it over the Z9D or any other Sony LCD that doesn't have X-Wide Angle, are mostly gamers.

[Lee A Stewart]

Samsung Creates AI Codec to Support 8K Content

SEOUL—Samsung has announced that it has developed a new artificial intelligence codec that will aid the delivery of 8K content to consumers, AI ScaleNet.

Created by Samsung Research, the R&D hub of Samsung Electronics’ SET Business, AI ScaleNet enables the delivery of 8K content on networks that are typically only able to support 4K speeds. It does this by utilizing deep learning technology to minimize data loss during compression, allowing for the 8K content to be streamed on networks with lower bandwidth capabilities.

Samsung says that the process is done by compressing the 8K content to 4K quality through an AI downscaler and transmitted to the user’s TV, which uses AI to upscale the content back to 8K quality.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/sa...ort-8k-content

[LordoftheRings]

That's good 8K news, we can use for our next 8K TVs.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Samsung says that the process is done by compressing the 8K content to 4K quality through an AI downscaler and transmitted to the user’s TV, which uses AI to upscale the content back to 8K quality.

Anything Samsung provides is suspect. You take a 8K master down convert it to 4K plus some kind of meta data and that is suppose to reconsitiitute 8K by upscaling. Why does this sound just like MQA?

Just think if one could apply the same to 4K to HD and HD to 4K, yeah I am really doubtful.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Samsung Creates AI Codec to Support 8K Content

SEOUL—Samsung has announced that it has developed a new artificial intelligence codec that will aid the delivery of 8K content to consumers, AI ScaleNet.

Created by Samsung Research, the R&D hub of Samsung Electronics’ SET Business, AI ScaleNet enables the delivery of 8K content on networks that are typically only able to support 4K speeds. It does this by utilizing deep learning technology to minimize data loss during compression, allowing for the 8K content to be streamed on networks with lower bandwidth capabilities.

Samsung says that the process is done by compressing the 8K content to 4K quality through an AI downscaler and transmitted to the user’s TV, which uses AI to upscale the content back to 8K quality.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/sa...ort-8k-content

Hah! That reads like the same spiel that Sony used to explain their 'Mastered in 4K' mode on their TVs, that on 'Mi4K' discs the 4K masters were downscaled to 1080p with a unique algorithm, the inverse of which lived inside the TVs. All you had to do was activate the Mi4K mode on the telly and boom, there you go. It was a load of cobblers then and is a load of cobblers now.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Samsung Creates AI Codec to Support 8K Content

SEOUL—Samsung has announced that it has developed a new artificial intelligence codec that will aid the delivery of 8K content to consumers, AI ScaleNet.

Created by Samsung Research, the R&D hub of Samsung Electronics’ SET Business, AI ScaleNet enables the delivery of 8K content on networks that are typically only able to support 4K speeds. It does this by utilizing deep learning technology to minimize data loss during compression, allowing for the 8K content to be streamed on networks with lower bandwidth capabilities.

Samsung says that the process is done by compressing the 8K content to 4K quality through an AI downscaler and transmitted to the user’s TV, which uses AI to upscale the content back to 8K quality.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/sa...ort-8k-content

The proof will be in the Samsung pudding, however, until then since most hobbyists are primarily concerned with the how to’s and wherefore’s of upscaling, they shouldn’t dismiss the importance of the quality of down scaling and the methodology used to achieve the final outcome, e.g., flash back Stacey - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post13895624

A previous technique using a basic form of the SSIM index, of which Stacey is aware – https://people.inf.ethz.ch/~cengizo/...ownscaling.pdf

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The proof will be in the Samsung pudding, however, until then since most hobbyists are primarily concerned with the how to’s and wherefore’s of upscaling, they shouldn’t dismiss the importance of the quality of down scaling and the methodology used to achieve the final outcome, e.g., flash back Stacey - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post13895624

A previous technique using a basic form of the SSIM index, of which Stacey is aware – https://people.inf.ethz.ch/~cengizo/...ownscaling.pdf

Interesting and appreciated. Still my suspicions are based on Samsung trying to muddy the waters perspective as they did with HDR10+ example trying to align themselves as a so called free and open standard rather then support openly all alternative methods to a end for 4K content never mind if it was at cost/licenses.