4K Movies Releases

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by joliefan

8ft wide (samsung 85inch) UHDT cost £60,000 in the uk !!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle4779192.ece

Really unhappy that I missed the boat on this a couple weeks back, i.e. “Netflix said that for the quarter ending December 31, the number of U.S. streaming subscribers increased by 2.05 million” < Stee, how ya doin?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-575...n-subscribers/

for I could have made myself some serious money and if I had purchased a lot of shares before their numbers came out -
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34227_16...-posts-profit/

Rumor has it that I would have bought me one of those Samsung behemoths.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...-still-stupid/

Specifically, see Point #2 -
“2) The eye has a finite resolution
This is basic biology. The accepted "normal" vision is 20/20. In response to my previous articles on the stupidity of 4K TVs, many people argued they had better vision, or some other number should be used. This is like arguing doors should be bigger because there are tall people.”

Well, the only thing I know about doors (and windows, for that matter) is what the http://www.renaissancedoorsandwindows.com/ people tell me before I write them out a check, so I’ll defer that subject to them, as I’ve always been happy with their service and product. I guess that makes me a happy stupid person.

Moving on.

As an inquiring stupid person, I question the applicability of the “basic biology” measurement, namely one arcminute of resolution which was excruciatingly previously described here -

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7...vs-are-stupid/ -which, b.t.w., forms the basis of the following chart, which is touted on internet forums as a Commandment, rather than just a rough guideline for 4K viewing… http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/

For, to me as a stupid person, it seems incorrect and limiting in its applicability to real world viewing beeecause, other than “resolution”, there are additional types of visual acuity which play an important role in human vision, namely ‘recognition’, ‘detection’ and ‘hyperacuity’.

Lucky Lecture 21 (for stupid people)
Scroll down to “Table 1 Types of Visual Acuity”, paying particular attention to Vernier (hyperacutiy) and this statement in the paragraph below the Naval Aviator figure…”shows that blur can significantly degrade resolution acuity. As the blur circles become larger, it is more difficult to resolve the two dots. Vernier acuity, on the other hand, is largely unaffected by blur. Whether the upper and lower lines of dots are blurred or not, the visual system is equally able to detect a difference in their positions.” See…http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~salmonto/v.../Lecture21.pdf

Or, think of it in this way. Two lines must be at least 1 arcminute apart to be assured that they are seen (by people with ‘normal’ 20/20 vision) as separate (resolved), but a misalignment of only 1/10 of this value can easily be detected in two abutting lines, see…http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Hyperacuity

And so, one might then ask, as a smart person, what is the accepted objective measurement for Vernier acuity? One arcminute, like which forms the basis of the cnet article(s) doctrine?

Hardly, again see Table 1 in the provided link…it’s more like 2-10 arc seconds!

I mean really….some tech reporters should realize that the above information is all “basic biology” to imaging scientists. Actually, the more interesting research/debate is advanced along the lines of what are the mechanisms which cause the reduction of Vernier acuity in the elderly, of which logMAR charts…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ar#post6698239

are valuable as measuring devices. But research into that is for really, really stupid people…http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3293147/

So, what does this all mean in layman’s terms?

It means…that humans can perceive aliasing and sharpness at distances beyond ‘resolution acuity’… and resolution acuity is what forms the basis of this reporter’s rant…and the calculations which led to the development of that dated home theater viewing distance chart. Or, think of it this way, just because a person can’t read the letters in a row on a Snellen chart at a particular viewing distance, does not mean that he/she can’t see that there are discrete letters at that distance or even much further distances away.

So, how does all this translate into TV viewing? It means that at the last CES, for instance, although one could not read the newspaper print in side-by-side 4K and 1080p displays beyond a distance of about 2 Picture Heights (which could be described as the ‘full benefit’ viewing distance)…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...es#post7013360

a viewer with normal (20/20 vision) could sit/stand substantially further away from the screen, like at least about 4 Picture Heights away and still perceive a *difference* (difference = better image) between the 4K and 1080p tv’s, with the 4K looking clearer and sharper, esp. when comparative viewing of detailed images characterized by high contrast sensitivity.

If there are any typos, misspellings, poor grammar, whatever, in the above post sorry, I’m a stupid person.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

So they will upconvert that 48fps to another rate through pulldown?

PS: Not a 49 fan and saw some bad behavior from them as well, just not as much and as blatant as the Raven stuff. Kids see bad sportsmanship being rewarded, and that sucks.

Well, they (the content provider) can try to do 48p -> 60p during the encoding stage but, I don’t think that many home viewers would consider that ‘solution’ to result in an appealing look.

But, on the other hand, I’m recently questioning the discern-ability of movie watchers in general (especially ‘fans’ of a particular genre, movie director, etc.) and how high their tolerance threshold has become. What I mean is, one company (which shall remain nameless) ran all the 24fps movie trailers preceding the Hobbit @ 48fps with their projector system and I didn’t hear of any outcry over the internet about that odd look.

P.S.
I don’t condone a player pushing a referee (even if the player is provoked) and I, nor any Baltimore fans I know, would have had any problem at all, if the ref had thrown a flag for that particular infraction. I doubt the coach, John H. would have either.

Here, I’ll throw you a Dolby bone to help you overcome that angst…great color-grading reference monitor- http://via.me/-9b5cmr0

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Definitely 4K 4:2:0

Beeeecause, good quality chroma upsampling does an excellent job and additionally, luma resolution is much more important than chroma resolution.

For DI processing, 4:4:4 16 bit is nice …
http://tech.ebu.ch/testsequences

With all due respect, based on what?

I purchased a 22" 1080p 120Hz LED HDTV for my 2-ch audio setup since I want to be able to see the track lists on the Blu-ray Audio discs, but truthfully, if you put a 720p HDTV next to it, I couldn't point out which one was 1080p and which was 720p. At that size, its indiscernible.

At some point, 1080p is going to look indiscernible to 4K or even 8K. What size TV is that? 32"? 40"? 50"? At what size TV am I really just paying for a number and not a benefit?

That is why I posed my question the way I did. At 60", which one will give me the most benefit? I know that for the 90" Sharp I was looking at yesterday, the 4K or 8K answer is appropriate. But how small can I go where I just can't see the difference?

Conversly, I can see a color difference no matter what size screen I have (assuming it can handle both chroma subsampling rates). Put them next to each other, and its very easy to pick out which one looks more realistic to the eye.

I don't know, at some point it just seems like a targetless arms race to see who can squeeze the most pixels on a screen. Studios are mastering some files at 8K... why not wait until 8K HDTVs come out? The technology is obviously there. This all just reminds me of the EDTV craze that lasted a few years.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by Josh

With all due respect, based on what?

I purchased a 22" 1080p 120Hz LED HDTV for my 2-ch audio setup since I want to be able to see the track lists on the Blu-ray Audio discs, but truthfully, if you put a 720p HDTV next to it, I couldn't point out which one was 1080p and which was 720p. At that size, its indiscernible.

At some point, 1080p is going to look indiscernible to 4K or even 8K. What size TV is that? 32"? 40"? 50"? At what size TV am I really just paying for a number and not a benefit?

That is why I posed my question the way I did. At 60", which one will give me the most benefit? I know that for the 90" Sharp I was looking at yesterday, the 4K or 8K answer is appropriate. But how small can I go where I just can't see the difference?

Conversly, I can see a color difference no matter what size screen I have (assuming it can handle both chroma subsampling rates). Put them next to each other, and its very easy to pick out which one looks more realistic to the eye.

I don't know, at some point it just seems like a targetless arms race to see who can squeeze the most pixels on a screen. Studios are mastering some files at 8K... why not wait until 8K HDTVs come out? The technology is obviously there. This all just reminds me of the EDTV craze that lasted a few years.

They honestly should all be remastering in 8k to save money down the road, but studios don't see it that way.

I would imagine at 12' your looking at a 72" TV to be optimal for 4k It has to be somewhere around there based on the charts people had posted. and probably 15-20' for a 100+" screen at 8k. Realistically yes you are right at some point when is enough really enough.

I think 4k is going to be the middle ground that wont seem to last until they make it true 4k, Right now I think they were trying to get like 3950x2056 or something stupid as the standard instead of true 4k.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Josh

I purchased a 22" 1080p 120Hz LED HDTV for my 2-ch audio setup since I want to be able to see the track lists on the Blu-ray Audio discs, but truthfully, if you put a 720p HDTV next to it, I couldn't point out which one was 1080p and which was 720p. At that size, its indiscernible.

First, it's still an LCD. It just has a LED backlight rather than a CCFL.

What brand is it? What material are you running to compare? Distance? Take tablets, people can see the difference between the 720p Microsoft Surface over the new 1080p one. I've seen terrible 1080p displays blown away by high quality 720p ones when fed by the exact same signal.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Josh

With all due respect, based on what?...

Maya told me so…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=2659

I thought I answered that already, i.e. good chroma upsampling does an excellent job for consumer exhibition purposes. It’s a moot discussion anyway because consumers are not going to get 4:4:4, just like they are not going to get uncompressed Blu-ray movies. If you’re looking for more precision, best to hope for Main 10….

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...10#post6987677

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Josh

But how small can I go where I just can't see the difference?...

If you get good compressed 4K as a source, it depends on screen-to-eye distance, how small do you want to go?…
http://www.techradar.com/news/comput...the-pc-1129964

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/4981...s-and-hands-on

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by R3P0

They...

R3PO!...how bout dem Ravens!

[img eL]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

R3PO!...how bout dem Ravens!

The Ravens will be nothing if they spend all there money on Flacco. On a side note I got two tickets to paradise

[Penton-Man]

This has got to be one of thee most expensive conferences in business, but you can’t beat the view looking out to the ocean from the back of the Ritz …
http://allthingsd.com/conferences/di...o-media/about/

The gadget people are covering it –
http://www.engadget.com/tag/dmedia2013/

^ 4K aside, stuff in there for everyone.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

R3PO!...how bout dem Ravens!

LOL im a lions fan so how bout em

[Penton-Man]

hah, with that Sig, I had thought you were a Michigan (Spartan) native that had transplanted to Baltimore. lol, well anyway, you have my empathy with the Lions. I think they’ll be at least *rewarded* with a top 5 first round draft pick coming up and maybe if they choose carefully, they can do something with that to improve upon their season ending slide.

[Penton-Man]

Well somebody/something ticked off Jim. The two 4K titans are now engaged in battle
http://www.deadline.com/2013/02/laws...obbit-cameras/

Last time I remember something of this magnitude was when Jim was with Oakley and they sued Nike for infringing patents for their optics and lens coatings...and Nike counter sued.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

hah, with that Sig, I had thought you were a Michigan (Spartan) native that had transplanted to Baltimore. lol, well anyway, you have my empathy with the Lions. I think they’ll be at least *rewarded* with a top 5 first round draft pick coming up and maybe if they choose carefully, they can do something with that to improve upon their season ending slide.

LOL its cool man. Last year my Sig had something for Al Davis due to his significance on the sport. But back to Topic!

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well somebody/something ticked off Jim. The two 4K titans are now engaged in battle
http://www.deadline.com/2013/02/laws...obbit-cameras/

Last time I remember something of this magnitude was when Jim was with Oakley and they sued Nike for infringing patents for their optics and lens coatings...and Nike counter sued.

You think he'll win?

What movies use sony's F65 camera? I hardly see any. I heard its suppose to be the best.

EDIT- Nevermind. After Earth will be the first-

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-hi...html#/f65t1_11

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Maya told me so…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=2659

I thought I answered that already, i.e. good chroma upsampling does an excellent job for consumer exhibition purposes. It’s a moot discussion anyway because consumers are not going to get 4:4:4, just like they are not going to get uncompressed Blu-ray movies. If you’re looking for more precision, best to hope for Main 10….

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...10#post6987677

It really sucks though. I would love for BD to use 4:4:4. Damn at least give us 4:2:2 then. That'll be close enough. A 150GB bluray would have than enough space for that.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

You think he'll win?...

You know, I’ve been too busy to read the complaint because for one thing, I’m in a rush to get things done before heading out to a conference in the dez…I was leaving that up to you guys.

With that in mind, off the top of my head, in regards to the Deadline reporter’s statement that RED desires “an injunction against Sony’s F65, F55 and F5 cameras to stop their further sale and have them destroyed”, I would say that there is a snowball’s chance in hell of that ever happening…even if, things were to go wrong for Sony and it necessitated an appeal to the Federal Court.

Jim is a rather shrewd fellow and I would venture a guess that there will be a settlement as to all the allegations, so “winning” is a relative term. In the grand scheme of things, I would say that the “winner” will be ultimately determined by how Sony Corp (SNE) stock price does after said predicted settlement is announced.

A trial would probably be in downtown San Diego and that’s but a daily commute from L.A. for a lot of tech reporters to cover, so some energetic lad could potentially hop on the Amtrak and go down there to sit in and give play-by-play analysis of the proceedings, which would be interesting, if only as to the attorney strategy. When Jim was at Oakley, Greg Weeks was also Oakley's general counsel during the Oakley vs. Nike patent infringement allegations, so RED’s representation has quite a bit of experience in litigating this type of thing.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

conference...

Speaking of which, this is by no means in ‘the dez’ (the desert) but, an alternative for those U.K. folks across the pond, especially in London, this is free…and at the very least you can take in a free screening of Galapagos 3D courtesy of Sky -
http://www.bvexpo.com/page.cfm/link=103

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

...win?

In non-litigious news and for some perspective as to how fortunate we all are to even be seriously discussing the difference and merits between 1080p and 4K….some background, view the clip here, from last December –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...sc#post6848325

Sap, now this is a ‘win’, and is ‘right’ …i.e. FDA approval today–
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/8004316/ns/video/#50816422