Real 4k disks - what do you think the rollout timeline will be?

[Jimmy Smith]

100 GBs doesn't seem like enough. I hope the new format can go higher than that. Even with HEVC compression supposidly doubling compression efficiency it would seem like 4k discs would have shorter playtimes than what we are used too

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I remember how BD was blasted in the early days for using data layers so close to the surface of the disc (meaning some kind of protection would be needed). IIRC, the original reason was it was much easier to do recordings. It should be interesting to see the technical specs for the triple layer disc.

is this like the old vaporware triple layer HD DVD 51 disc?

Seriously. I like they are trying to push technology. But part of me thinks this is just a temporary band-aid to milk current BD technology.

We need truly next gen hardware. I thought Panasonic and Sony recently said they were working on 300GB discs. That should be the basis for the new basis of the format if they seriously want it to take off and not be limited by old physical disc specifications.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by Tok

is this like the old vaporware triple layer HD DVD 51 disc?

Seriously. I like they are trying to push technology. But part of me thinks this is just a temporary band-aid to milk current BD technology.

We need truly next gen hardware. I thought Panasonic and Sony recently said they were working on 300GB discs. That should be the basis for the new basis of the format if they seriously want it to take off and not be limited by old physical disc specifications.

With 300 gigs to work with we can have a 4k format support things like deep color, 3D, and high frame rates and still maintain lengthy movies and extras. With only 100 it will be difficult to give us the bells and whistles without a compromise to quality or with short play times

[Canada]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

With 300 gigs to work with we can have a 4k format support things like deep color, 3D, and high frame rates and still maintain lengthy movies and extras. With only 100 it will be difficult to give us the bells and whistles without a compromise to quality or with short play times

But don't forget that HEVC was created that is twice as efficient as AVC.

[I KEEL YOU]

Originally Posted by Insomniac01

I remember people saying the same thing about dvd.

"HD will flop big time i think. People are already more then happy with the PQ on dvd. Hell dvd look amazing on a big projector screen.

People are not gonna buy into another format when dvd look so good now and also the HD tv sets would cost insanely much"

No you don't.

In 2006-07, if you saw a DVD on a 50 inch screen, which is about the average size of a TV for a common household, and then saw an early blu ray release of that same movie on the same TV, the difference was evident.

In 2014-15 if you did the same process with a blu ray and a 4K format instead, the difference wouldn't be nowhere as big. First of all, you would need an 80 inch screen to see a clear difference and you would need to sit relatively close to the screen. And even then, the difference wouldn't be as big as the difference between DVD and blu ray.

I'm not saying that there won't be any difference, but to say that it will be as big as the jump from DVD to blu ray just isn't accurate. The challenge for the 4K format as far as the common consumer is concerned is that it won't merely be a matter of buying a disc player of the new format like you could with the DVD to blu ray transition, but the whole TV buying culture will need to change and people will need to start buying 80+ inch TVs, which I am far from sure the average consumer will do as a 50 inch TV is pretty satisfactory for most people.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

No you don't.

In 2006-07, if you saw a DVD on a 50 inch screen, which is about the average size of a TV for a common household, and then saw an early blu ray release of that same movie on the same TV, the difference was evident.

In 2014-15 if you did the same process with a blu ray and a 4K format instead, the difference wouldn't be nowhere as big. First of all, you would need an 80 inch screen to see a clear difference and you would need to sit relatively close to the screen. And even then, the difference wouldn't be as big as the difference between DVD and blu ray.

I'm not saying that there won't be any difference, but to say that it will be as big as the jump from DVD to blu ray just isn't accurate. The challenge for the 4K format as far as the common consumer is concerned is that it won't merely be a matter of buying a disc player of the new format like you could with the DVD to blu ray transition, but the whole TV buying culture will need to change and people will need to start buying 80+ inch TVs, which I am far from sure the average consumer will do as a 50 inch TV is pretty satisfactory for most people.

People have adapted to larger TVs. They can adapt to even bigger. It's amazing how quickly I adapted to my first large (50 inch tv) several years ago. It doesn't seem that big now. Having said that, I have a projector so go figure.

[Jimmy Smith]

Originally Posted by Canada

But don't forget that HEVC was created that is twice as efficient as AVC.

Yeah but even with twice the compression efficiency when you are dealing with 4x the resolution, twice the framerate, and twice the color depth you are still dealing with alot of extra data for a 100 gig disc. I think increasing to bit depth would be a huge benefit in eliminating color banding. Increasing the bit depth from 8 bits to 10 bits or even 12 bits would be a great boast but would require much higher bitrates. 10 bit alone would double the needed bitrate. With 300 gigs to work with they could give us 4k with 10 bit depth and 48 frames per second and still give us the same play times we enjoy on Blu-Rays today. That would rock

[David M]

Increasing the bit depth from 8 bits to 10 bits or even 12 bits would be a great boast but would require much higher bitrates. 10 bit alone would double the needed bitrate.

That is a common misconception. 10-bit encoding is actually more efficient than 8-bit, although you wouldn't expect that to be the case.

[Bishop_99]

Wouldn't their best option be to offer 4k and 2k combo BD versions and a 2k regular version and charge a premium for the 4k Blu-ray? Supposing that the BDA ends up going with the 100 GB discs and the new HEVC encode. This way, it doesn't seem like an entire new disc format is being introduced again, just an upgrade to the current one? Like when they brought in 3D. People needed a new Blu-ray player and 3D HDTV. I think it could work better than the 3D combo pack once enough people have 4k tv's.

In the beginning they can save up the entire space of the 4k movie to the new Blu-ray discs and just have the special features on the 2k version, or a third disc for that matter.

4k/2k Blu-ray combo = $30 to $35
regular 2k Blu-ray release = $20

And if the BDA will lead 4k and no other company comes around with a different disc based 4k format.

[KRW1]

This thing about TV size. Looking at the history of TV, it's gone from tiny 8" screens housed in giant wooden cabinets to 50" nearly flat things that you can sort of hang on the wall.

I see no reason why this should not continue to progress so that in five or six years time the norm will be ultra flat 85" screens designed to sit flat on the wall. I imagine you'll be able to choose screen size based on what you're watching, so you can go 40" to watch the news, but blow it up to big screen size for movies. That seems logical to me, as you wouldn't want to watch everything at that size. (Well, I wouldn't)

The idea that we'll stop progress in this area because we're used to 50-60" screens and that's as big as we want to go fails to take into account the nature of progress. We don't stop because we're satisfied with what we have; there's an ever increasing push towards bigger, better etc. 4k will eventually dovetail alongside this. This is already happening.

The average person argument doesn't even come into it. There are 'average' people out there still watching 28" CRT square TVs. There are other 'average' people out there who have squeezed 65" screens into tiny rooms.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Bishop_99

Wouldn't their best option be to offer 4k and 2k combo BD versions and a 2k regular version and charge a premium for the 4k Blu-ray? Supposing that the BDA ends up going with the 100 GB discs and the new HEVC encode. This way, it doesn't seem like an entire new disc format is being introduced again, just an upgrade to the current one? Like when they brought in 3D. People needed a new Blu-ray player and 3D HDTV. I think it could work better than the 3D combo pack once enough people have 4k tv's.

In the beginning they can save up the entire space of the 4k movie to the new Blu-ray discs and just have the special features on the 2k version, or a third disc for that matter.

4k/2k Blu-ray combo = $30 to $35
regular 2k Blu-ray release = $20

And if the BDA will lead 4k and no other company comes around with a different disc based 4k format.

I like the sound of that. You're right in that the transition could prove to be no more difficult than that of 3D, seeing as we needed new TVs and BD players for that anyway. That said, upgrading again just a few years later might not prove to be popular in some households!

I hope that 2K HFR 3D is part of the new BD/HDMI specs though. We know that 4K 2D at up to 60fps will be supported, but I doubt we'll get any native movie content at that res and frame rate any time soon (let alone in 3D), whereas something like the Hobbit is ready to go at 48fps 2K 3D. That would be sweeeeeeet.

[David M]

Originally Posted by Tok

Seriously. I like they are trying to push technology. But part of me thinks this is just a temporary band-aid to milk current BD technology.

We need truly next gen hardware.

If a revised, higher capacity disc isn't next-gen hardware, what is it?

I thought Panasonic and Sony recently said they were working on 300GB discs.

This has been misreported as "future Blu-ray" all over the web. Panasonic and Sony's 300gb format is for archival, writable use, not factory pressing ROM discs.

That should be the basis for the new basis of the format if they seriously want it to take off and not be limited by old physical disc specifications.

100gb + HEVC can do the job. Hell, even 100gb + AVC likely could for a lot of content. If it works and BD-ROM can be extended to handle the required capacity, what would the benefit for them be in delaying introduction by many years and forcing replicators to adopt an entirely new standard?

[pro-bassoonist]

Originally Posted by Bishop_99

Wouldn't their best option be to offer 4k and 2k combo BD versions and a 2k regular version and charge a premium for the 4k Blu-ray? Supposing that the BDA ends up going with the 100 GB discs and the new HEVC encode. This way, it doesn't seem like an entire new disc format is being introduced again, just an upgrade to the current one? Like when they brought in 3D. People needed a new Blu-ray player and 3D HDTV. I think it could work better than the 3D combo pack once enough people have 4k tv's.

In the beginning they can save up the entire space of the 4k movie to the new Blu-ray discs and just have the special features on the 2k version, or a third disc for that matter.

4k/2k Blu-ray combo = $30 to $35
regular 2k Blu-ray release = $20

And if the BDA will lead 4k and no other company comes around with a different disc based 4k format.

What was discussed last year -- somewhere -- was precisely that: an extension of Blu-ray's portfolio, very similar to how 3D is promoted and sold.

Whether this is how 4K will be offered to the consumer when the official announcements are made remains to be seen.

People making the important marketing decisions should think very carefully how to word their statements because if 4K is labeled as a new format it will create a wave of very negative reactions. The smart thing to do is promote it as a premium extension of Blu-ray (and you could do all the packaging you suggested above).

Pro-B

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ronjones

Several news items in the past week...
1. HDMI 2.0 standard now approved, announced last week at IFA in Germany

Ron, since you apparently don’t have access to anything specific in the HDMI 2.0 spec, a little audio info….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...io#post8104027

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Lyris

...Hell, even 100gb + AVC likely could for a lot of content.

Hell Yes.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Lyris

If a revised, higher capacity disc isn't next-gen hardware, what is it?


This has been misreported as "future Blu-ray" all over the web. Panasonic and Sony's 300gb format is for archival, writable use, not factory pressing ROM discs.


100gb + HEVC can do the job. Hell, even 100gb + AVC likely could for a lot of content. If it works and BD-ROM can be extended to handle the required capacity, what would the benefit for them be in delaying introduction by many years and forcing replicators to adopt an entirely new standard?

Exactly! I'm ready for 4k.

[Bishop_99]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I like the sound of that. You're right in that the transition could prove to be no more difficult than that of 3D, seeing as we needed new TVs and BD players for that anyway. That said, upgrading again just a few years later might not prove to be popular in some households!

I hope that 2K HFR 3D is part of the new BD/HDMI specs though. We know that 4K 2D at up to 60fps will be supported, but I doubt we'll get any native movie content at that res and frame rate any time soon (let alone in 3D), whereas something like the Hobbit is ready to go at 48fps 2K 3D. That would be sweeeeeeet.

Yes, I think the transition to 4k in some fashion like that, will be there best option. Sure, not everyone will welcome it or care, like all the large amount of people that still buy DVD's, but making it seem like an additional bonus to Blu-ray will make it far easier for the public to accept. At some point, 4k tv's will become the norm and the material will be there already in Blu-ray for the 4k content.

All tech progress that they can make with the BDA can make with 4k would be great!

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

What was discussed last year -- somewhere -- was precisely that: an extension of Blu-ray's portfolio, very similar to how 3D is promoted and sold.

Whether this is how 4K will be offered to the consumer when the official announcements are made remains to be seen.

People making the important marketing decisions should think very carefully how to word their statements because if 4K is labeled as a new format it will create a wave of very negative reactions. The smart thing to do is promote it as a premium extension of Blu-ray (and you could do all the packaging you suggested above).

Pro-B

Great! It's good to know that the BDA is planning something along these lines. Promoting it as a premium extension, as you said, would be there best option. I know that even if I didn't have an UHD TV next year, but Blu-ray movies were sold with as a 4k/2k combo pack, I would buy that version over the the regular Blu-ray release. If in the other hand, only a separate 4k format was offered, I would buy the regular Blu-ray instead.

I hope this is how it all works out because it would easily extend the life of Blu-ray even further.

[Tok]

I think 4K discs will be at best this generations LDs if they ever get to market.

I really don't think 4K discs are viable until DVDs are no longer produced. Right now they would just further segment the market. You saw what type of premiums the studios thought they could get away with BD. If DVD and BD are still being sold then what do think the price increase will be for 4K disc?

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Tok

I think 4K discs will be at best this generations LDs if they ever get to market.

I really don't think 4K discs are viable until DVDs are no longer produced. Right now they would just further segment the market. You saw what type of premiums the studios thought they could get away with BD. If DVD and BD are still being sold then what do think the price increase will be for 4K disc?

Too many shows in DVD format. You have like 6500 BD's out there compared to 143,000 release SD's. Is the title popular enough to have it go through a SD to BD conversion? Most of the time no. So expect DVD's to be around a real long time. 4K media when it come's out with be yet another choice, no worse then 3D titles.

[Geoff D]

Yeah, if they posit it as an extension to the standard BD format a la 3D, and don't talk it up as a brand-new replacement for the long term, it'll tick along just fine.

I can see the combo packages now: BD + 3D BD + 4K BD + DVD + DC.