HDR Discussion Thread - Page 567 - Blu-ray Forum

DJR662 · 10-23-2019, 04:48 AM

“This film may not be the one, but someone somewhere has got to advance cinema forward, otherwise nothing changes.”

If it ain't broke...

I honestly don't understand the need and fascination with all of this HFR business. Reading that article gives me the shivers.

mrtickleuk · 10-23-2019, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

But 3D is not going anywhere ... Avatar sequels are impregnated with the latest 3D art.

Or "infected", as I would put it

Lee A Stewart · 10-23-2019, 02:03 PM

What they need to do is abandon 24 fps as the standard format and adopt 30 fps. It's enough of a change to improve on pans and judder but not enough to cause the images to look like TV.

The original 70mm format (Todd-AO) was 70mm @ 30 fps (projection format - 65mm @ 30 fps shooting format)

puddy77 · 10-23-2019, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm not sure why the actual presentation itself has to physically vary in frame rate though? They can create a version with 24fps (or near enough) scenes with duplicated frames to fit the HFR frame rate 'container', and when the action ramps up then the actual HFR content kicks in.

Speaking of which, I recall it being floated in one article or another that they were doing this on Gemini Man, that it wasn't actually 120fps all the way through? Yep: https://www.screendaily.com/features...140383.article

I think this is what I was thinking of. They tested it but chose not to do it.

https://www.ibc.org/create-and-produ...n/4533.article

Quote:

The filmmakers also had the option of alternating the frame rate between scenes but chose in the end to maintain a consistent 120 frame rate throughout.

“We learned in tests that if you start out looking at 24 and switch up frame rates the change takes you out of the movie. You get used to it after a few minutes but if you switch back down to 24 then it’s distracting. There are all sorts of creative reasons why you might want to do this for a particular story. Ready, Player One, for example, might work since you are moving between different worlds. But it wasn’t right for a more conventional drama like ours.”

FilmFreakosaurus · 10-23-2019, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puddy77

I think this is what I was thinking of. They tested it but chose not to do it.

https://www.ibc.org/create-and-produ...n/4533.article

They made the wrong choice. This thing looks like a soap opera the whole way through.

Geoff D · 10-23-2019, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puddy77

I think this is what I was thinking of. They tested it but chose not to do it.

https://www.ibc.org/create-and-produ...n/4533.article

Thanks, fair enough, but the point remains that they can do this within the HFR 'container' by duplicating frames without actually physically changing the playback rate of the 'container' itself (which is not the same as actual VRR tech), so it won't be an issue for Cameron on the Avadahs if he wants to do it. As he'll likely be using 60p at most then the difference between the 24 and 60 stuff won't be so pronounced as on Gemini Man in going from 24 to 120, though Cameron shot T2: Battle Across Time in 30fps (on dual strip 65mm!) so it wouldn't surprise me if the dialogue stuff had a touch of extra temporal resolution to start with so that the transition to the actual HFR shots is less jarring.

puddy77 · 10-24-2019, 02:53 AM

Thought I'd help Penton out with a Top Gun post. The 4k trailer is available to download here: https://thedigitaltheater.com/2019/1...a-and-ac3-5-1/

Penton-Man · 10-24-2019, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puddy77

Thought I'd help Penton out with a Top Gun post. The 4k trailer is available to download here: https://thedigitaltheater.com/2019/1...a-and-ac3-5-1/

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post16754959
from this (arrowed sticker) squadron -

Penton-Man · 10-24-2019, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puddy77

Looks like we will be spared HFR on the future Avatars: https://collider.com/avatar-sequels-...james-cameron/

good to see the author (https://collider.com/avatar-sequels-...james-cameron/ ) agrees visually with what I posted the day before his interview with James C. was published - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...b#post16969054

at least somebody’s looking at the scenes

Penton-Man · 10-24-2019, 06:55 PM

Q&A live now from SMPTE conf -
https://live.awsevents.com/awselemental/

Lee A Stewart · 10-24-2019, 07:33 PM

Phoenix Model Market, DS Broadcast Team on HFR 120 Hz ATSC 3.0 Broadcast

PHOENIX—DS Broadcast has announced that it recently conducted an over-the-air broadcast of High Frame Rate 120 Hz video, working with the Phoenix Model Market project to do so. The company says the video was encoded by its BGE9300 encoder, received by its BGD4100 integrated receiver decoder, transmitted via a NEXTGEN TV transmitter from the Phoenix Model Market and displayed on UHDTV screens in the Phoenix area.

Typical TV video is transmitted at 30 frames per second, which DS Broadcast says can create a blur for high-motion activity like sports or scenes of waterfalls and ocean surf. NEXTGEN TV is expected to deliver 60 frames per second, but Dave Folsom, consulting engineer for the Phoenix Model Market project, says that 120 Hz is the “holy grail” for sports fans.

“This combination creates an exceptionally immersive experience, even with 2K video sources,” Folsom said. “It’s even more impressive than 4K video to the average viewer. And the combination of High Frame Rate with High Dynamic Range is also very efficient for broadcasters, consuming little additional bandwidth.”

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/ph...0-hz-broadcast

LordoftheRings · 10-24-2019, 08:57 PM

Interlude ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaZh...ature=youtu.be

mrtickleuk · 10-24-2019, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Phoenix Model Market, DS Broadcast Team on HFR 120 Hz ATSC 3.0 Broadcast

Typical TV video is transmitted at 30 frames per second, which DS Broadcast says can create a blur for high-motion activity like sports or scenes of waterfalls and ocean surf. NEXTGEN TV is expected to deliver 60 frames per second, but Dave Folsom, consulting engineer for the Phoenix Model Market project, says that 120 Hz is the “holy grail” for sports fans.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/ph...0-hz-broadcast

It's sad and embarrassing when publications continually make mistakes like this. Yet again, peddling the canard that interlacing "splits up" only 30 images into 60 "half-frames" of a mythical 30fps original.

Whereas in FACT, for live broadcasting in the majority of cases, there are 60 DIFFERENT pictures per second, producing super-slick motion. 60 FIELDS per second does NOT mean 30 frames per second.

There are 60 different moments in time which are captured by the camera and displayed by the TV. Leave interlacing artefacts out of it for a moment, the motion is smooth because of this, and to imply that it's only 30fps is just a wrong

Michael Balderson should be thoroughly ashamed of himself for making such a fundamental error.

sapiendut · 10-24-2019, 10:33 PM

That’s a VERY bad mistake.

Penton-Man · 10-25-2019, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Q&A live now from SMPTE conf -
https://live.awsevents.com/awselemental/

ICYMI, Pat G. encouraging and even offering

to help out (vis-à-vis Dolby Laboratories) NASA regarding HDR for future imaging of/from outer space…..

Penton-Man · 10-25-2019, 06:55 AM

As of an hour ago, the recorded event is available to the public –

NASA & AWS Collaboration on Proof-of-Concept Live-From-Space Streaming Workflow - SMPTE 2019 - YouTube

Penton-Man · 10-25-2019, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

SMPTE conf

Cool to see some old faces (ex-contributors to AVS forum) compressionist Ben Waggoner and freelancer Scott Wilkinson there this week.

Penton-Man · 10-25-2019, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puddy77

....I swear I read somewhere (possibly in this thread, possibly from Penton) that variable frame rate theatrical presentation was a no go.....

Possibly me, as I was speaking about the technical difficulty in performing it vis-à-vis the projector systems at the time (2016) - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post12781379

and in previous posts prior to 2016, as opposed to achieving the same outcome vis-à-vis the new introduction of TrueMotion software by Tony Davis.

Penton-Man · 10-25-2019, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

a positive outlook on the future.

https://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/tech/...144039.article

Penton-Man · 10-25-2019, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Happy bunch

I’ll post another couple pictures on location for Top Gun: Maverick from last Feb., after work.

carry on

10-23-2019, 04:48 AM	#11321
DJR662 Blu-ray Knight Member since: Feb 2009 Posts: 8,769 Thanks: 7,820 Thanked 5,739 times in 3,279 posts	“This film may not be the one, but someone somewhere has got to advance cinema forward, otherwise nothing changes.” If it ain't broke... I honestly don't understand the need and fascination with all of this HFR business. Reading that article gives me the shivers.

10-23-2019, 02:03 PM	#11323
Lee A Stewart Blu-ray Baron Member since: Jan 2019 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 13,999 Thanks: 2,578 Thanked 5,799 times in 3,651 posts	What they need to do is abandon 24 fps as the standard format and adopt 30 fps. It's enough of a change to improve on pans and judder but not enough to cause the images to look like TV. The original 70mm format (Todd-AO) was 70mm @ 30 fps (projection format - 65mm @ 30 fps shooting format)

10-24-2019, 02:53 AM	#11327
puddy77 Blu-ray Guru Member since: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,298 Thanks: 497 Thanked 2,442 times in 1,014 posts	Thought I'd help Penton out with a Top Gun post. The 4k trailer is available to download here: https://thedigitaltheater.com/2019/1...a-and-ac3-5-1/

10-24-2019, 06:55 PM	#11330
Penton-Man Retired Hollywood Insider Member since: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,165 Thanks: 24 Thanked 4,173 times in 3,113 posts	Q&A live now from SMPTE conf - https://live.awsevents.com/awselemental/

10-24-2019, 07:33 PM	#11331
Lee A Stewart Blu-ray Baron Member since: Jan 2019 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 13,999 Thanks: 2,578 Thanked 5,799 times in 3,651 posts	Phoenix Model Market, DS Broadcast Team on HFR 120 Hz ATSC 3.0 Broadcast PHOENIX—DS Broadcast has announced that it recently conducted an over-the-air broadcast of High Frame Rate 120 Hz video, working with the Phoenix Model Market project to do so. The company says the video was encoded by its BGE9300 encoder, received by its BGD4100 integrated receiver decoder, transmitted via a NEXTGEN TV transmitter from the Phoenix Model Market and displayed on UHDTV screens in the Phoenix area. Typical TV video is transmitted at 30 frames per second, which DS Broadcast says can create a blur for high-motion activity like sports or scenes of waterfalls and ocean surf. NEXTGEN TV is expected to deliver 60 frames per second, but Dave Folsom, consulting engineer for the Phoenix Model Market project, says that 120 Hz is the “holy grail” for sports fans. “This combination creates an exceptionally immersive experience, even with 2K video sources,” Folsom said. “It’s even more impressive than 4K video to the average viewer. And the combination of High Frame Rate with High Dynamic Range is also very efficient for broadcasters, consuming little additional bandwidth.” https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/ph...0-hz-broadcast

10-24-2019, 10:33 PM	#11334
sapiendut Blu-ray Samurai Member since: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 4,242 Thanks: 2,724 Thanked 2,712 times in 1,587 posts	That’s a VERY bad mistake.