The Hobbit Trilogy Discussion Thread

[Taikero]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

The writing and staging, yeah...but the dragon design and f/x were aces.

Most of the conversation Smaug and Bilbo had was taken pretty much from the book. Some changes were made, yes, but most of what you hear is Tolkien. I can't agree with the writing being crap in this case.

Personally I thought everything with Smaug was perfect until right after Thorin makes his way into the mountain and threatens Bilbo. After that point, the film devolves into a run-of-the-mill chase scene where the heroes can't die, and the entire exercise is mostly pointless other than to justify the immense investment that went into Smaug's rendering and design. Smaug also loses some credibility as an intelligent dragon by being outwitted time-and-again within the mountain by the dwarves. Sure, the dwarves know caves better than anyone, but I believe it wrong to bolster Thorin's claim that Smaug is a "witless wyrm".

On one hand, I'm glad we got to see Smaug going bonkers, yet on the other, I think it would have been good for everybody involved if at least one dwarf got burned alive here, or injured sufficiently so as to be basically incapacitated leading into the next film. With no harm done, the stakes feel weaker than they should be after an encounter with a dragon that sacked an ENTIRE MOUNTAIN full of dwarves not so long ago, a mountain full of actual warriors, not a couple warriors and some merchants, as is described in the first film.

[Mahatma]

Originally Posted by Taikero

Most of the conversation Smaug and Bilbo had was taken pretty much from the book. Some changes were made, yes, but most of what you hear is Tolkien. I can't agree with the writing being crap in this case.

Personally I thought everything with Smaug was perfect until right after Thorin makes his way into the mountain and threatens Bilbo. After that point, the film devolves into a run-of-the-mill chase scene where the heroes can't die, and the entire exercise is mostly pointless other than to justify the immense investment that went into Smaug's rendering and design. Smaug also loses some credibility as an intelligent dragon by being outwitted time-and-again within the mountain by the dwarves. Sure, the dwarves know caves better than anyone, but I believe it wrong to bolster Thorin's claim that Smaug is a "witless wyrm".

On one hand, I'm glad we got to see Smaug going bonkers, yet on the other, I think it would have been good for everybody involved if at least one dwarf got burned alive here, or injured sufficiently so as to be basically incapacitated leading into the next film. With no harm done, the stakes feel weaker than they should be after an encounter with a dragon that sacked an ENTIRE MOUNTAIN full of dwarves not so long ago, a mountain full of actual warriors, not a couple warriors and some merchants, as is described in the first film.

And that constituted how large a portion of the movie?It's a giftwrapped turd my man

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Taikero

Most of the conversation Smaug and Bilbo had was taken pretty much from the book. Some changes were made, yes, but most of what you hear is Tolkien. I can't agree with the writing being crap in this case.

Not talking about the dialog...talking about that protracted dwarf/dragon chase. Thorin standing on Smaug's mouth? Yeah...that sucked. It eliminates the danger and menace of an antagonist that has been built up as a huge threat when he is made to look ineffectual, almost like a Warner Bros. character getting schooled by Bugs Bunny.

And do they explain how Smaug was able to force the Ring of Power off of Bilbo's hand on the commentary?

Personally I thought everything with Smaug was perfect until right after Thorin makes his way into the mountain and threatens Bilbo. After that point, the film devolves into a run-of-the-mill chase scene where the heroes can't die, and the entire exercise is mostly pointless other than to justify the immense investment that went into Smaug's rendering and design. Smaug also loses some credibility as an intelligent dragon by being outwitted time-and-again within the mountain by the dwarves. Sure, the dwarves know caves better than anyone, but I believe it wrong to bolster Thorin's claim that Smaug is a "witless wyrm".

On one hand, I'm glad we got to see Smaug going bonkers, yet on the other, I think it would have been good for everybody involved if at least one dwarf got burned alive here, or injured sufficiently so as to be basically incapacitated leading into the next film. With no harm done, the stakes feel weaker than they should be after an encounter with a dragon that sacked an ENTIRE MOUNTAIN full of dwarves not so long ago, a mountain full of actual warriors, not a couple warriors and some merchants, as is described in the first film.

Agree 100%. That's what I was referring to.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

And do they explain how Smaug was able to force the Ring of Power off of Bilbo's hand on the commentary?

They don't get into any specifics IIRC, but occasionally they mention how their Smaug is tied in to the darkness that's creeping over the land, i.e. Sauron, so he's an agent of that evil whether he knows it or not, and given his lust for gooooooooold it kinda gives him a bit more juju re: the Ring.

[Walts Ghost]

A fitting send off, but still feel it should never have been three films...

After twelve years, we have finally reached the sixth and final film in Peter Jackson’s immensely popular Middle Earth series, with The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies. Who would have thought that by the time the series was over, we would be looking at two trilogies, both totaling well over twenty hours of footage and story, and bringing J.R.R. Tolkien’s beloved book series and world to life. While the first series of films were beloved by audiences and critics alike, The Hobbit series hasn’t been as fortunate. What started as a simple three hundred page book has now become three films, for better or worse, and has taken us on a very detailed and expanded tale of Bilbo’s journey out of The Shire and back again. While the first film in this new trilogy is the weakest of the bunch, this last film is a step above it, but the problem is it all feels like it should have been in the second movie.

Full Review

[Diesel]

Originally Posted by Walts Ghost

A fitting send off, but still feel it should never have been three films...



Full Review

About how I expect to feel about it.

I quite enjoy most of Desolation of Smaug and a good bit of Unexpected Journey, but when I consider watching them again I think about "Oh...there's also those long stretches that I don't like..." which doesn't happen with Lord of Rings.

Splitting Desolation's happenings into the other two films could have gone a long way to making the movies significantly more enjoyable.

[Taikero]

Originally Posted by Mahatma

And that constituted how large a portion of the movie?It's a giftwrapped turd my man

Oh, I've been one of the more vocal posters here about my gripes with DoS, but I will say also that Mirkwood was done well, and with the Extended Edition many problems with the Theatrical version were cleared up.

I can't excuse some decisions that have been made with characters, but not all of it has been bad. Mirkwood, Smaug, The Woodland Realm (design), Laketown (design), many positive things were presented in DoS. Even the barrel-riding scene, while totally over the top, was fun and impressive. I may have my gripes here, but I also have a lot of fun watching the film outside the moments that irk me specifically.

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

And do they explain how Smaug was able to force the Ring of Power off of Bilbo's hand on the commentary?

From what I understand, it's meant to accomplish a few things.

• Increasing Smaug's connection to Sauron as a powerful denizen of evil.
• Providing a powerfully visible representation of Smaug's psychological prowess, which is reinforced by the ensuing conversation.
• Provide face-to-face time for Bilbo and Smaug, which is considered more interesting than Smaug talking to the air sniffing around for a "thief in the shadows"
• This version is much more "cat and mouse" than the book, where Smaug is keen on toying with Bilbo's emotions before he eats him. He takes pleasure in tormenting this little person.

Essentially, it makes for better viewing, and it ties in better to the idea of a Middle Earth Saga as opposed to an encapsulated Hobbit experience. Sauron has somehow contacted Smaug (which is why Smaug knows so much of the outside world) and enlisted his assistance in the coming bid for all of Middle Earth. This makes sense considering Smaug is the last of the known red dragons. Had Smaug not been killed here, we would have seen him as a primary force of destruction in the events of the Lord of the Rings. Fortunately for Gondor, this did not happen (as the sacking of Minas Tirith would have been more disastrous, yet also simultaneously less eventful).

By allowing Smaug to sense the Ring, and to exert his psychological strength over Bilbo to either scare the Ring off him or cause it to be uncomfortable for Bilbo to wear, or even simply to coerce Bilbo momentarily to take it off, it enhances Smaug's menace. This change I can actually live with, because it plays well into what Jackson was going for. Having said that, again, running around the forges could have been left out, or something else done altogether.

[Geoff D]

You're absolutely right Taikero, the main reason the Ring comes off is because they wanted Bilbo and Smaug to be talking face-to-giant-face. It was done for dramatic reasons first and foremost.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You're absolutely right Taikero, the main reason the Ring comes off is because they wanted Bilbo and Smaug to be talking face-to-giant-face. It was done for dramatic reasons first and foremost.

Yes -- I already knew WHY they did it. I can practically hear Boyens talking right now, "You can't have this showdown and have Bilbo in the Wraith World and Smaug in the normal world so we improved the story a bit..."

It's the how of it...how can an animal force Bilbo to remove the RING OF POWER?!?

[Geoff D]

That's pretty much what they say the commentary Ernest.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

It's the how of it...how can an animal force Bilbo to remove the RING OF POWER?!?

Well, they aren't any old animals. Tolkien's dragons have all kinds of psychic powers such as mind reading, some form of mind control, etc. They're also ancient beings, bred by Morgoth himself, Sauron's superior. I have no trouble accepting Smaug getting into Bilbo's mind and messing with it at that point personally.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

Well, they aren't any old animals. Tolkien's dragons have all kinds of psychic powers such as mind reading, some form of mind control, etc. They're also ancient beings, bred by Morgoth himself, Sauron's superior. I have no trouble accepting Smaug getting into Bilbo's mind and messing with it at that point personally.

Where did Smaug have mind control powers in The Hobbit? In any version? He can force someone to take off the Ring of Power with his mind, but can't get a dwarf off of his nose?

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Where did Smaug have mind control powers in The Hobbit? In any version? He can force someone to take off the Ring of Power with his mind, but can't get a dwarf off of his nose?

I was talking more generally about Middle-earth dragons when I listed their abilities, in all honesty though it's been way too long since I last read the books, so I don't have very detailed memories of The Hobbit.

However I do know Glaurung had powers of that general nature, so it's not that much of a stretch to think Smaug would be similar. Not outright mind control as such, but some form of telepathy, something that allows him to get inside Bilbo's head? It wouldn't be the first time the movies took some liberties and gave described traits of one character to another, embellished certain things and so on.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Where did Smaug have mind control powers in The Hobbit? In any version? He can force someone to take off the Ring of Power with his mind, but can't get a dwarf off of his nose?

People get all worked up over Thorin standing on Smaug's nose. It lasts for all of two seconds and Jackson says in the commentary, and its made clear in the film that Smaug in the film does have to "charge" his flame. He cant just continually blow it forever. He had just unleashed it before he went down the mineshaft after Thorin and when Thorin lands on Smaug's nose he begins to build up his flame. You can see it. Then Smaug unleashes it as Thorin is ascending the mine shaft and it nearly bakes Thorin just as he gets over the ledge.

Y'all act like Thorin river danced on Smaug's nose for ten minutes.

In Jackson's film Smaug is powerful enough to effect Bilbo and to make him remove the Ring. Its a fantasy saga in which the foes of Darkness can make people do all kinds of strange things. Is it really that hard to accept?

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Cook

People get all worked up over Thorin standing on Smaug's nose. It lasts for all of two seconds and Jackson says in the commentary, and its made clear in the film that Smaug in the film does have to "charge" his flame. He cant just continually blow it forever. He had just unleashed it before he went down the mineshaft after Thorin and when Thorin lands on Smaug's nose he begins to build up his flame. You can see it. Then Smaug unleashes it as Thorin is ascending the mine shaft and it nearly bakes Thorin just as he gets over the ledge.

Y'all act like Thorin river danced on Smaug's nose for ten minutes.

In Jackson's film Smaug is powerful enough to effect Bilbo and to make him remove the Ring. Its a fantasy saga in which the foes of Darkness can make people do all kinds of strange things. Is it really that hard to accept?

Who said anything about roasting Thorin? I'm talking SNAP! (gulp!) Why does Smaug just stare at him? The scene reminds me of Hook struggling with the crocodile in Disney's Peter Pan. And as much as I love the animated features, in this case, that's not a good thing.



And yeah -- I know exactly why the dragon forces Bilbo to remove the Ring of Power. The same cynical, condescending attitude about audiences that gave us Arwen inexplicably dying in Return of the King as some sort of motivation for Aragorn and Elrond...why Aragorn goes sailing off a cliff in the The Two Towers...why Pippin looks like he got trampled in The Two Towers...the gross invention of Frodo sending Sam home at Shelob's lair...Gollum kicked off a ledge at the end of the battle...the conflicts are goosed and goosed and goosed. Nothing intellectual about it. It's show business. Meanwhile, people who admire these films for everything they get right weep in frustration at the lapses in taste and restraint.

[MorgolKing]

To those who have seen the film: Is the scale of the battle as big as pelennor fields? Do we get a lot large army shots?

[Rinzler]

Originally Posted by MorgolKing

To those who have seen the film: Is the scale of the battle as big as pelennor fields? Do we get a lot large army shots?

Lots of nice large shots, absolutely. Nice in 3D as well. I attended a screening tonight, and while I did very much enjoy this one, I think Desolation might be number 1 of the three films for me.

[Kryptonic]

Biggest opening day of the years in 8 of the 11 markets it's opened in.

http://pro.boxoffice.com/latest-news...11-territories

[L-Rouge]

Originally Posted by MorgolKing

To those who have seen the film: Is the scale of the battle as big as pelennor fields? Do we get a lot large army shots?

yep probably a few thousand less, but the trolls are mountainous. well choreographed!. and gorgeous.

[MorgolKing]

Originally Posted by L-Rouge

yep probably a few thousand less, but the trolls are mountainous. well choreographed!. and gorgeous.

Awesome. I really like trolls