"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[lgans316]

Let's not forget that it was the same Xylon and Denner who went the extra mile in pointing out the framing error in POTC which wasn't easily noticeable in motion.

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by lgans316

Let's not forget that it was the same Xylon and Denner who went the extra mile in pointing out the framing error in POTC which wasn't easily noticeable in motion.

Gee, an HD DVD fanatic during the format war going the extra mile to find an error on a blu-ray title that most people didn't even notice upon their initial viewing (as you say "wasn't easily noticable in motion.. That's Xylon speciality, finding grabs to show flaws that aren't noticeable by most when watching motion).. Shocked I tell you

Of course that blew up into a massive thread, go AVS

[Blu Titan]

Penton looks like Paramount just raised the bar with their upcoming Signature line releases of Braveheart and Gladiator.


Gladiator

Braveheart

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Gee, an HD DVD fanatic during the format war going the extra mile to find an error on a blu-ray title that most people didn't even notice upon their initial viewing (as you say "wasn't easily noticable in motion.. That's Xylon speciality, finding grabs to show flaws that aren't noticeable by most when watching motion).. Shocked I tell you

Of course that blew up into a massive thread, go AVS

People having the corrected version and cursing doesn't nice to me as the caps have still helped them in getting the right version.

When you zoom the Gladiator pics posted at dvdbeaver to full resolution it shows the application of EE and NR. Whether its heavy or mild is something that the eyes and mind have to collectively decide.

[Jeff Kleist]

What it shows far more is the limitations of Super35 photography, and a lack of understanding of the process or memory of how the film looked theatrically. The scenes with his family are super smooth to give them that dreamlike quality. The edge halos are so minor, and only in a few places that you actualy have to go looking for to notice. These are the same people that are complaining they see sharpening in the theater for pete's sake.

If anyone thinks that this disc went out with anything other than Ridley Scott's stamp of approval, they're kidding themselves.

When you zoom the Gladiator pics posted at dvdbeaver to full resolution it shows the application of EE and NR. Whether its heavy or mild is something that the eyes and mind have to collectively decide.

Your wording, intentional or not is the equivalent of the phrase "some people say" in political circles. It says "I believe it is, but I don't want to be held accountable for that opinion, but throw that in and run in the other direction while those who picked up the ball fight it out"

As far as the POTC thing goes: A stopped clock is right twice a day. It doesn't make up for the other 1439min and 58sec it's wrong

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Gee, an HD DVD fanatic during the format war going the extra mile to find an error on a blu-ray title that most people didn't even notice upon their initial viewing (as you say "wasn't easily noticable in motion.. That's Xylon speciality, finding grabs to show flaws that aren't noticeable by most when watching motion).. Shocked I tell you

Of course that blew up into a massive thread, go AVS

What a great contributor Xylon is...managed to deleted my only post in his TDK thread within 10 minutes of posting. All I wrote was "thanks for the shots of the great PQ".

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Blu Titan

What a great contributor Xylon is...managed to deleted my only post in his TDK thread within 10 minutes of posting. All I wrote was "thanks for the shots of the great PQ".

Not surprised in the least. He's posted blurry shots of blu-ray movies in the past and others have posted crystal clear grabs with great detail from the same disc (pooof their post with grabs vanish, leaving only his blurry shots)..

[HeavyHitter]

Based on those screenshots, Gladiator looks a bit "electronic" and digital. Braveheart doesn't.

Gladiator doesn't look horrible, but it just doesn't have that natural filmlike look Blu-ray is capable of delivering with the proper handling.

[sharkshark]

*yawn*

You guys going on about this again? Jeez....

Gladiator's an overwrought, terrible film in desperate need of a few wide shots during the battle scenes (only outdone by Bay's subsequent first Transformers "film"), and a horrifyingly banal incest subplot that drags a boring film even further down. Go watch Spartacus in High Def instead (oh, wait, we're still waiting for a "blu" one, aren't we? Well, my HD copy isn't exactly pristine, but it'll server me better than watching Scott's folly one more time)

And Braveheart... Well, it has its moments of blue-faced fun, but once it devolves into a not-so-veiled Passion play, a precurser to his box-office busting Jesus porn, it becomes a total mess. This take is all the more problematic, naturally, after the unveiling of his previously latent anti-semitism, and the public revelations of the ultra-conservative Catholic teachings of his father's church sect that shape his revisionist telling of this Scottish history.

But, yeah, that's me being a party pooper.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Based on those screenshots......

Heavy, I guess you missed reading or else totally dismissed what I posted on the previous page.

I would suggest you watch the home video of the motion picture first will ya?
Then, if you feel it is “a bit electronic” or “digital”, bang away as to its less than optimal video rendition of the film.
Meanwhile, for some past perspective -

Screenshot scientist:
“Baraka comparison *PIX*- No its not reference PQ as many "reviewer(s)" has asserted. To even mention this among the "best in PQ" and as good as Sleeping Beauty and How The West Was Won is just grossly inaccurate.
Scanned at 8K Ultra High Resolution and this is what the resulting image on Blu-ray? Uneven, artificial, inconsistent image. There are scenes that is better looking than the rest but that is not saying much does it? EE or "ringing" as others has called is definitely there.”

Then the posting of multiple ‘illustrative’ screenshots as ‘evidence’.



Several days or weeks later -
*Movie Watcher:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=307

*(Some) Credentials of Movie Watcher-
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7561206.html
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7158668.html
http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/

[DenonCI]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

*Movie Watcher:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=307

*(Some) Credentials of Movie Watcher-
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7561206.html
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7158668.html
http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/

[SBrooks1]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Has anyone on that forum actually seen the Blu-ray movie in motion yet?

I have. Significant EE is very noticeable especially around Russel Crowe's head in most of the scenes I screened tonight. It's not just AVS talking about it either. People who have received their Blu-ray's early on HighDefDigest and even on here have noticed it. If it's not mentioned in every review that comes out for this Blu-ray, it's being ignored because it's hard to miss.

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

A stopped clock is right twice a day. It doesn't make up for the other 1439min and 58sec it's wrong

Dig. However, despite the egregious examples you've cited, does it remain beyond the pale that there could, in fact, be problems with thse titles?

Have you yet watched them, in motion (as per Penton's justifiable admonition) and come to the conclusion that these early assessments are wrong?

Again, I'm not defending the tactics of those on AVS, nor supporting those that seem to find nits to pick for the sake of either agenda or simple argumentative fodder. I'm merely pointing out that knee jerk reactions to screenshots are equally deplorable, I'd suggest, as knee jerk assumptions that nothing could go wrong, and that a sometimes-wrong messanger thus must be vilified. This is one of those instances where hyperbole seems to be rampant from all sides.

Humbly, I'd suggest waiting until your own evaluation before coming to the conclusion about these titles, just as you would have those screaming about EE do the same. But then again, I think both films are completely worth shredding in favour of buying, I dunno, Coraline (fabulous disc!).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by SBrooks1

I have. Significant EE is very noticeable especially around Russel Crowe's head in most of the scenes I screened tonight. It's not just AVS talking about it either. People who have received their Blu-ray's early on HighDefDigest and even on here have noticed it. If it's not mentioned in every review that comes out for this Blu-ray, it's being ignored because it's hard to miss.

Finally, someone who has actually viewed the movie.

If upon viewing, there is so much sharpening that it is producing halos around actor’s heads (as you imply) then I would suggest that you start a review thread here, post your finding along with how detrimental you found it to be to your overall viewing experience, the size of your display, how far you sit from your display, the model of your display and how said display has been calibrated.

That is a valid scientific way to do it and then you guys can go at it.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

I agree it might make it smoother and less noticeable but people have said "compression artifacts won't be visible when viewed in motion", ie. at 23.976fps. I don't see how any anomalies will automatically be invisible when viewed in motion since we see are able to see at higher than 24fps. Eg. sports & live TV at 50-60 fps (fields/frames), TVs that interpolate to 100, 120, 200, 240Hz or more. So if a particular artefact is present in a screenshot, and we can see at 60fps or more, though I can see how it might be less visible in motion, how can we say that artefact won't be visible when viewed in motion at 23.976 or 24fps?.

Although we can feel the affect of higher frame rates, I do not think we can see individual frames. If we could see individual frames we couldn't have enjoyed motion pictures. We indeed can enjoy moving pictures although they are not really moving because of the smoothing affect of the eye and brain combination. This is a fact. This applies to isolated individual pixel anomalies in isolated frames. This type of isolated pixel (or clustered pixel) anomalies are smoothed out in a motion picture and will not be noticed or will be hard to notice although it can be easily noticed in an individual frame.

However, consistent anomalies that is repeated over many frames such as DNR and EE can be picked up very easily since they are consistently repeated in every frame and this bothers most people. I really cannot understand the rationale for the application of excessive DNR and EE in blu-rays.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Dig. However, despite the egregious examples you've cited, does it remain beyond the pale that there could, in fact, be problems with thse titles?

Have you yet watched them, in motion (as per Penton's justifiable admonition) and come to the conclusion that these early assessments are wrong?

Again, I'm not defending the tactics of those on AVS, nor supporting those that seem to find nits to pick for the sake of either agenda or simple argumentative fodder. I'm merely pointing out that knee jerk reactions to screenshots are equally deplorable, I'd suggest, as knee jerk assumptions that nothing could go wrong, and that a sometimes-wrong messanger thus must be vilified. This is one of those instances where hyperbole seems to be rampant from all sides.

Humbly, I'd suggest waiting until your own evaluation before coming to the conclusion about these titles, just as you would have those screaming about EE do the same. But then again, I think both films are completely worth shredding in favour of buying, I dunno, Coraline (fabulous disc!).

Honest to God, sometimes your line of reasoning just amazes me.

[Jeff Kleist]

Based on those screenshots, Gladiator looks a bit "electronic" and digital. Braveheart doesn't.

Gladiator doesn't look horrible, but it just doesn't have that natural filmlike look Blu-ray is capable of delivering with the proper handling.

I think you'll find those words can describe many of Ridley Scott's films. Body of Lies and Black Hawk Down share similar characteristics. Even before he started doing DI with Kingdome of Heaven.

Dig. However, despite the egregious examples you've cited, does it remain beyond the pale that there could, in fact, be problems with thse titles?
*snip*
Again, I'm not defending the tactics of those on AVS, nor supporting those that seem to find nits to pick for the sake of either agenda or simple argumentative fodder. I'm merely pointing out that knee jerk reactions to screenshots are equally deplorable, I'd suggest, as knee jerk assumptions that nothing could go wrong, and that a sometimes-wrong messanger thus must be vilified. This is one of those instances where hyperbole seems to be rampant from all sides.

Of course there could be, but no one who hasn't gotten someone to break street has them yet. However the AVS crew's continuous crying of wolf makes them by default wrong, until proven right. They lost benefit of the doubt years ago. This isn't hyperbole, it's simply stomping down the echo chamber as quickly as possible before it gets going,

Essentially you're accusing me of being...the typical term is "shrill" for pointing out the Emperor almost never has any clothes before he starts his latest naked freakout. Just because this is the 10th time you've seen this, there's a lot of people for whom it's a first time

Finally, someone who has actually viewed the movie.

If upon viewing, there is so much sharpening that it is producing halos around actor’s heads (as you imply) then I would suggest that you start a review thread here, post your finding along with how detrimental you found it to be to your overall viewing experience, the size of your display, how far you sit from your display, the model of your display and how said display has been calibrated.

That is a valid scientific way to do it and then you guys can go at it.

Bingo, scientific method. The problem is that you don't get a control on these forums, because most people have hit a bias by the time they actually get into it

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Honest to God, sometimes your line of reasoning just amazes me.

It shouldn't, as all I'm advocating is:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If upon viewing, there is so much sharpening that it is producing halos around actor’s heads (as you imply) then I would suggest that you start a review thread here, post your finding along with how detrimental you found it to be to your overall viewing experience, the size of your display, how far you sit from your display, the model of your display and how said display has been calibrated.

That is a valid scientific way to do it and then you guys can go at it.

yeah, that.

Well said, sir.

By the way, in a spirit of further Youtube vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTxTWc0ShAg

...Looky what showed up in Toronto 30 hours ago!

Was just out at 2am helping some hydro guys that have been out for over 24 hours chainsawing trees... They got sent out without flashlights (!) so I lent them one of mine, and actually assisted with my Light Canon beastie (http://www.uwkinetics.com/product/5) - killer, killer scuba light if you've not invested in such a toy.... Like a handheld, underwater 10k HMI

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Essentially you're accusing me of being...the typical term is "shrill" for pointing out the Emperor almost never has any clothes before he starts his latest naked freakout. Just because this is the 10th time you've seen this, there's a lot of people for whom it's a first time

Pathetically, I'm reminded of David Hume and the sun-will-rise example to explain the nature of inductive reasoning. I'm too sleepy - back to watching Star Trek!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

I think you'll find those words can describe many of Ridley Scott's films.......

“I said, ’Ridley, it’s f***ing snowing!"
He yelled, "Cut! I don’t care.”
(http://www.theasc.com/magazine/may00/pg2.htm)

I love Ridley. Producers love him, actors love to work with him, etc.
Jeff, maybe you or Bill should try to get Ron Smith or someone else from Paramount’s Mastering Dept. to give a little spiel on the Bits regarding the technicalities of the Blu-ray production of both Braveheart and Gladiator movies.

I’ll bet a lot of people would appreciate the interview.