Dark Force Entertainment Discussion Thread

[gbm82]

DF's 4K SDR release of Scream also had substantially better PQ than the 1080p Blu.

That's llimbo-ing under a pole that's 10 feet off the ground.... Most DVDs have better PQ.

[Energy Crisis]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Studios that do permanently own content do make the decision whether to do SDR 4k (e.g. MGM's master of The Great Escape 4K) or not release a 4K at all if the film will look worse with 4K HDR (Warner Bros has publically spoken about this in interviews). You can have your own opinion, but it is not shared by some of the best professionals n the industry - HDR can be problematic for some content. DNR can also help solve this in some cases (as seen in numerous 4K releases), but I assume you like that even less

Ha, well you've got me there. As Warner points out in that link, all that early CGI in Final Exam would definitely look worse with HDR.

Originally Posted by Ruined

Bottom line, instead of being armchair film techs who have no access to the source materials being discussed and criticizing based on specs alone, why don't we wait and see the results of the professionals' decisions and form an opinion after that? The 4K SDR release of The Great Escape got excellent reviews. DF's 4K SDR release of Scream also had substantially better PQ than the 1080p Blu.

Well, ok? I would hope the 4K release of Scream would look better than the BD. I've already said I'm sure the Final Exam disc will be the best version to date. Of course it will be. But that's not the point and you know that. If you move the goalposts and lower the bar enough, every release is perfect.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by Ruined

[Show spoiler]As far as I am aware, labels like VS and Arrow don't permanently own a library of content to monetize. Therefore they can pick and choose what content to license that they can give the deluxe 4K HDR treatment with excellent results and not release 4K of the rest. This gives the illusion that everything they touch is gold, when in reality a large part of it is licensing of content with top notch source materials; an example of this in the SDR world is when Arrow released Fernando DiLeo's Milano Calibro from the underwhelming quality DiLeo collection Raro released and some people were bagging on Raro and waiting for the Arrow releases of the rest of the collection - 8 years later, those people are still waiting & Arrow ain't gonna touch them unless they can do a pristine release.

Studios that do permanently own content do make the decision whether to do SDR 4k (e.g. MGM's master of The Great Escape 4K) or not release a 4K at all if the film will look worse with 4K HDR (Warner Bros has publically spoken about this in interviews). You can have your own opinion, but it is not shared by some of the best professionals n the industry - HDR can be problematic for some content. DNR can also help solve this in some cases (as seen in numerous 4K releases), but I assume you like that even less

Bottom line, instead of being armchair film techs who have no access to the source materials being discussed and criticizing based on specs alone, why don't we wait and see the results of the professionals' decisions and form an opinion after that? The 4K SDR release of The Great Escape got excellent reviews. DF's 4K SDR release of Scream also had substantially better PQ than the 1080p Blu.

You link an article from 2017 that talks about CGI heavy films in a discussion about a film shot on 35mm. Warner Bros. themselves have put out Citizen Kane and Singing in the Rain, two films with less than optimal OCNs, with HDR to fantastic results. It's not about PQ it's about costs. Let's not pretend it's something different.

And we're seeing 2K DIs upscaled with improved PQ. So take that excuse elsewhere.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bergman864

You link an article from 2017 that talks about CGI heavy films in a discussion about a film shot on 35mm. Warner Bros. themselves have put out Citizen Kane and Singing in the Rain, two films with less than optimal OCNs, with HDR to fantastic results. It's not about PQ it's about costs. Let's not pretend it's something different.

And we're seeing 2K DIs upscaled with improved PQ. So take that excuse elsewhere.

Sure we're also seeing Warner Brothers and major other studios apply lots of DNR in their 4K releases so that the HDR doesn't cause a noise fest when elements are less than ideal. Are you advocating you would have preferred DNR on this release?

[HighScore Valerie]

Originally Posted by Demon Dave

How many movies have you released on bluray Energy Crisis? Cause when you have done as many as we have you will be a better authority on the technical aspects of these. The amount of improvement or non-improvement HDR brings to a movie can vary greatly and also can be a matter of loose opinion. But to compare the cinematography of THE HILLS HAVE EYES to FINAL EXAM is insane. The HILLS HAVE EYES was shot on a gorgeous desert background. FINAL EXAM was shot at a school. Even our upcoming drive-in release ALIEN THUNDER was shot incredibly with gorgeous real western locations. FINAL EXAM was shot at the school entirely. In our opinion the best enhancements that movie could get were the new 4K scan and the new color correction by one of the best guys around. And consider this Energy Crisis a little known fact, the original 35mm camera negative for FINAL EXAM had been lost for years until Dark Force found it and now have possession of it. WITHOUT that there would be no upgrade of FINAL EXAM period! And we for sure got it WAAAAAY better than it's ever looked on home video. But instead of a THANK YOU Dark Force poor little FINAL EXAM is being criticized before any one has even seen it yet because NO HDR. We say save the judgement until you see THE 4K! We have already shown the blu is definitely much superior and I can personally guarantee the 4K is significantly better than that. I would even be willing to bet if we did do a 4K with HDR it would not be an improvement. This opinion is also shared by the Almighty Film Guru himself...Mr. Joseph Rubin of VINEGAR SYNDROME. And I think he knows something about film restoration.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by HighScore Valerie

Pretty much summarizes the reaction of many users on this forum when presented with a valid technical argument backed by evidence that contradicts their opinion.

[DaveyJoe]

We could withhold judgment on the disk and wait to see how it turns out before making a decision to purchase. Can anyone point me to the reviews on this site for the Scream and Dead Pit UHDs?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Energy Crisis

Ha, well you've got me there. As Warner points out in that link, all that early CGI in Final Exam would definitely look worse with HDR.

Originally Posted by bergman864

You link an article from 2017 that talks about CGI heavy films in a discussion about a film shot on 35mm. Warner Bros. themselves have put out Citizen Kane and Singing in the Rain, two films with less than optimal OCNs, with HDR to fantastic results. It's not about PQ it's about costs. Let's not pretend it's something different.

And we're seeing 2K DIs upscaled with improved PQ. So take that excuse elsewhere.

If you don't like the Warner Bros direct quote, which I felt would be easier for you to understand, below is a scientific paper on it from IEEE:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8977599

[Energy Crisis]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Sure we're also seeing Warner Brothers and major other studios apply lots of DNR in their 4K releases so that the HDR doesn't cause a noise fest when elements are less than ideal. Are you advocating you would have preferred DNR on this release?

Dude, seriously. Most releases have some grain management going on. That's just the way it is and it's not a problem if it's done in a way that's not noticeable and obvious. Nobody is advocating for turning Final Exam into a wax museum and DNR isn't remotely related to what we're talking about. I don't need to handle the elements to know that Final Exam isn't going to be as grainy as, say, every 16mm title on UHD that has used HDR wonderfully. I know your gimmick is being a Dark Force apologist, but this is total straw man stuff.

[HighScore Valerie]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Pretty much summarizes the reaction of many users on this forum when presented with a valid technical argument backed by evidence that contradicts their opinion.

You make it perfectly clear where your loyalty lies.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Energy Crisis

I don't need to handle the elements to know that Final Exam isn't going to be as grainy as, say, every 16mm title on UHD that has used HDR wonderfully.

Did you look at the 3 photos DF posted on social media of the 4K disc? Because the amount of grain/noise in those photos looks like a 16mm film. Given it came from the same source, its pretty clear the SF blu had some heavy DNR applied if those photos are accurate.

[gbm82]

Originally Posted by Ruined

If you don't like the Warner Bros direct quote, which I felt would be easier for you to understand, below is a scientific paper on it from IEEE:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8977599

Most people, including me, don't have access to that. The abstract provides zero details...as abstracts are wont to do.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Energy Crisis

Dude, seriously. Most releases have some grain management going on. That's just the way it is and it's not a problem if it's done in a way that's not noticeable and obvious. Nobody is advocating for turning Final Exam into a wax museum and DNR isn't remotely related to what we're talking about. I don't need to handle the elements to know that Final Exam isn't going to be as grainy as, say, every 16mm title on UHD that has used HDR wonderfully. I know your gimmick is being a Dark Force apologist, but this is total straw man stuff.

Grain management *is* DNR, just a prettier word for it with implication of more elegant implementation of it

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Sure we're also seeing Warner Brothers and major other studios apply lots of DNR in their 4K releases so that the HDR doesn't cause a noise fest when elements are less than ideal. Are you advocating you would have preferred DNR on this release?

You can't seriously believe the reason we get DNR on discs is because of problems with HDR? There's no way you actually believe that. You can't honestly think an HDR grade results in an abundance of noise, even for less than ideal elements. I'm just going to assume you're spinning your wheels trying to come up with an excuse.

Originally Posted by Ruined

Did you look at the 3 photos DF posted on social media of the 4K disc? Because the amount of grain/noise in those photos looks like a 16mm film. Given it came from the same source, its pretty clear the SF blu had some heavy DNR applied if those photos are accurate.

You know what HDR really helps with? Grain management and detail in the shadow areas. Grain and noise are not the same thing. Noise is a digital issue. It won't be part of the original film image.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bergman864

You can't seriously believe the reason we get DNR on discs is because of problems with HDR? There's no way you actually believe that. You can't honestly think an HDR grade results in an abundance of noise, even for less than ideal elements. I'm just going to assume you're spinning your wheels trying to come up with an excuse.

HDR amplifies grain & noise, yes, common knowledge - tonemapping especially. I just posted a scientific paper on it. If you can't post a scientific paper to counter it, I'm just going to assume you're spinning your wheels trying to come up with an excuse.

[gbm82]

Originally Posted by gbm82

Most people, including me, don't have access to that. The abstract provides zero details...as abstracts are wont to do.

Originally Posted by Ruined

HDR amplifies grain & noise, yes, common knowledge - tonemapping especially. I just posted a scientific paper on it. If you can't post a scientific paper to counter it, I'm just going to assume you're spinning your wheels trying to come up with an excuse.

....

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by gbm82

....

It's not my responsibility to provide you with a membership if you want to read the full text, but the abstract gives you the general idea - HDR very much impacts the way grain is rendered, often exacerbating it especially after the TV completes its tonemapping process (which is required for display of HDR content). This is why most 4K discs have some level of noise reduction to control the grain level.

There is a publically available video on how tonemapping of HDR content amplifies grain/noise if you are interested, it actually shows you in realtime the noise amplification (0:45):
https://vimeo.com/139199224

I will note that everyone arguing against me has provided absolutely nothing in terms of evidence to back their assertions.

[gbm82]

Originally Posted by Ruined

It's not my responsibility to provide you with a membership if you want to read the full text, but the abstract gives you the general idea - HDR very much impacts the way grain is rendered, often exacerbating it especially after the TV completes its tonemapping process (which is required for display of HDR content).

There is a publically available video on how tonemapping of HDR content amplifies grain/noise if you are interested, it actually shows you in realtime the noise amplification (0:45):
https://vimeo.com/139199224

I will note that everyone arguing against me has provided absolutely nothing in terms of evidence to back their assertions.

uh.. yes it is, if you want to say you provided evidence...you actually have to, you know, provide it.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by gbm82

uh.. yes it is, if you want to say you provided evidence...you actually have to, you know, provide it.

Well, that would be, you know, illegal if I were to post the full text. Feel free to watch the additional video I provided.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by Ruined

It's not my responsibility to provide you with a membership if you want to read the full text, but the abstract gives you the general idea - HDR very much impacts the way grain is rendered, often exacerbating it especially after the TV completes its tonemapping process (which is required for display of HDR content). This is why most 4K discs have some level of noise reduction to control the grain level.

There is a publically available video on how tonemapping of HDR content amplifies grain/noise if you are interested, it actually shows you in realtime the noise amplification (0:45):
https://vimeo.com/139199224

I will note that everyone arguing against me has provided absolutely nothing in terms of evidence to back their assertions.

If you have a terrible TV that can't properly tonemap it's not the fault of HDR. Don't use HDR as an excuse for shoddy work. Thriller, Henry: Portrait of Serial Killer (a dour looking film), The Hills Have Eyes and The Texas Chain Saw Massacre use HDR quite well to enhance the visuals and improve the grain and shadow areas.

Casablanca and the Universal Classic Monsters UHDs have noticeable gains with HDR over their 1080p counterparts.