Dark Force Entertainment Discussion Thread

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by splintersan

Statements like that are so absurd.
He's obviously out of his mind.
I'm willing to bet he hasn't watched very many.
Lot's of great DVD's from VS.
Looks like some one grasping at straws to defend DF.

Guess the attached screenshots didn't come from VS DVDs? Or did they? HINT: They did.

I'm willing to bet *you* haven't watched very many if you think their DVD output is remotely comparable in consistency to their BD output.

[splintersan]

No one said that VS doesn't have DVD's with damage on the print. But you made a blanket statement saying that they only put out good prints on bluray and all of their DVD's are shitty quality, which is untrue. Also have you seen The Hearse? 20+ minutes is VHS quality. So again proving you are wrong saying they only release pristine prints on bluray.

Of course VS puts out the best looking prints they have on blu, that's literally the point of restoring something. If they can't restore something to a certain level then they put it out on DVD. Or if the film isn't going to sell all that well, put it out on DVD.

[Damonstein]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Guess the attached screenshots didn't come from VS DVDs? Or did they? HINT: They did.

I'm willing to bet *you* haven't watched very many if you think their DVD output is remotely comparable in consistency to their BD output.

That's a pretty extreme example, most of their dvds look way better than that. I would also rather watch those prints than watch a wax fest like the carrier. Like I said, lots of their dvds are from the negative. I'm also sure they would've made the carrier look way better than code red did.

[WoodyO]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I won't link to them because both NSFW and offtopic, but for example their Storefront Theatre releases have lots of print damage - entire frames filled with green lines etc - even visible in the few screenshots they put on their store website. They do release a lot of good DVDs, but also there are many with a lot of damage, color/contrast issues, or other problems.

Aren't those 8mm roughies?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by WoodyO

Aren't those 8mm roughies?

VS states 16mm for both releases, and the content is a hodgepodge of Grindhouse material.

But, they were still scanned at 2K, yet were released on DVD instead of Blu-ray; the superior resolution and compression of Blu-ray would have benefitted these masters despite the frequent damage (not to mention the functional improvements like hardcoat scratch resistance). Anyway, they are hardly the only VS DVDs with issues, just one example as I was asked for - and the screens above are actually from the VS website.

Barring a few exceptions the majority of the BDs VS puts out are very high quality, while a significantly higher percentage of their DVDs have heavy print damage at times, color/contrast issues, jump cuts, etc. That's not to say they don't put out nice looking DVDs as well, but the consistency of their Blu-ray PQ that people love is not nearly as consistent in their DVD releases.

[Member-222782]

Please don't provoke Ruined. Mods: can we limit posts to one or two sentences per day per thread?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Cinema74

Please don't provoke Ruined. Mods: can we limit posts to one or two sentences per day per thread?

Maybe also mostly limit posts to Dark Force / Code Red discussion instead of continually bringing up "other label" discussion as was asked for by a mod on the previous page?

[Damonstein]

You're right, we need to get back on topic. Should we talk about when dark force threatened walt olsen, or that time he lied to everyone about bills apartment?

[Member-222782]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Maybe also mostly limit posts to Dark Force / Code Red discussion instead of continually bringing up "other label" discussion as was asked for by a mod on the previous page?

I think the threads should be merged since DF is basically selling mostly Code Red titles

Code Force or Dark Red Entertainment.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Damonstein

That's a pretty extreme example, most of their dvds look way better than that. I would also rather watch those prints than watch a wax fest like the carrier. Like I said, lots of their dvds are from the negative. I'm also sure they would've made the carrier look way better than code red did.

They do have quite a few good looking DVDs, many I was sad to see get the DVD treatment (some of those better looking DVDs got Blu upgrades down the road). But they also have quite a few DVDs with PQ issues as well. Its just nowhere near as consistent as their Blu-ray output - personally I'd rather have everything on Blu-ray regardless of PQ issues. I even buy SOV stuff on Blu-ray when available simply because I like the scratch resistance.

Re: The Carrier, we really don't know how bad the DC master was and if it was unwatchable scanned as-is, only CR/DF knows that. The TC master on the same release wasn't DNR'd so obviously Code Red doesn't just DNR stuff for no reason.

But, as a point the Dark Force Drive-In #1's "Don't Look in the Basement" Code Red master was roundly rejected for having too much print damage; some people on this board even returned it due to the amount of print damage. So people do have a limit for how much print damage they can handle, regardless of the distaste for digital manipulation and claims that anything is better than digital manipulation.

Worth also noting that studios even frequently apply DNR to very nice 4K UHD masters that require preservation of much higher resolution, so applying some DNR to a badly damaged 70s master really shouldn't be tremendously controversial. There are different types of DNR and it can be applied at varying strengths, not all DNR implementations will look like "The Carrier," per Code Red that just needed more aggressive implementation due to the terrible shape of the only available element used.

[whedon]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Guess the attached screenshots didn't come from VS DVDs? Or did they? HINT: They did.

I'm willing to bet *you* haven't watched very many if you think their DVD output is remotely comparable in consistency to their BD output.

Originally Posted by Ruined

VS states 16mm for both releases, and the content is a hodgepodge of Grindhouse material.

But, they were still scanned at 2K, yet were released on DVD instead of Blu-ray; the superior resolution and compression of Blu-ray would have benefitted these masters despite the frequent damage (not to mention the functional improvements like hardcoat scratch resistance). Anyway, they are hardly the only VS DVDs with issues, just one example as I was asked for - and the screens above are actually from the VS website.

Barring a few exceptions the majority of the BDs VS puts out are very high quality, while a significantly higher percentage of their DVDs have heavy print damage at times, color/contrast issues, jump cuts, etc. That's not to say they don't put out nice looking DVDs as well, but the consistency of their Blu-ray PQ that people love is not nearly as consistent in their DVD releases.

Those images and those releases are in no way representable for their work, they freely admit that those releases have issues and the decision not to put them on Blu makes perfect sense. All the benefits of Blu-Ray in the world won't make them look in any way good.You can dress a pig up all you want but at the end of the day no matter how much makeup you slap on its still a pig.

VS are open about why those films and other do not get a Blu-ray release, it's cost, they have never stated otherwise. Also, as someone who is too busy feeding on the tit of DF you may not realise that in recent memory the only VS films not to get a Blu have been hardcore films.

[WoodyO]

Originally Posted by Cinema74

I think the threads should be merged since DF is basically selling mostly Code Red titles

Code Force or Dark Red Entertainment.

Do ya think DeFalco is bill's illegitimate love child?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by whedon

Those images and those releases are in no way representable for their work, they freely admit that those releases have issues and the decision not to put them on Blu makes perfect sense. All the benefits of Blu-Ray in the world won't make them look in any way good.You can dress a pig up all you want but at the end of the day no matter how much makeup you slap on its still a pig.

I don't think its a "pig" though, undeserving of Blu-ray; this is my fundamental disagreement, as long as financially possible for the studio I'd love to see everything on Blu-ray even if unrestored. If you compare the 1080p screenshots on the VS website to the 480p encode on this series of DVDs, for instance, the 2K master screenshots on the VS website offer a very significant uptick in detail to the DVD despite the 16mm masters and the at times heavy damage they have.

VS are open about why those films and other do not get a Blu-ray release, it's cost, they have never stated otherwise. Also, as someone who is too busy feeding on the tit of DF you may not realise that in recent memory the only VS films not to get a Blu have been hardcore films.

Nah, there have been numerous hardcore films VS has put on Blu-ray, for instance Sweet Young Foxes, The Young Like it Hot, Pretty Peaches Trilogy (released twice on Blu), Sexworld (released twice on Blu), etc, just off the top of my head. They do state they don't sell as well on Blu as typical horror genre releases, though. But, remember in these cases the 2K masters are already complete, the primary extra spend would be the additional costs of authoring & replicating on BD instead of DVD.

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Vinegar Syndrome, while I subscribe to their yearly package, uses a clever marketing trick to make it appear that they release only top notch video quality product.

While Vinegar Syndrome releases many Blu-rays, around half of their releases are DVD-only. But virtually all of the DVDs they release are sourced from 2K scans, perfectly usable HD masters - but often with lots of damage. Why wouldn't they release those HD masters on the more marketable Blu-ray format when the work is already done in making an HD master? Simple: if they put only the masters sourced from pristine (or very workable) elements on Blu-ray, and shift the HD masters sourced from more damaged elements over to DVD-only, then it will appear to the Blu-ray customer that their output is near flawless. It is very easy to have excellent Blu-ray output by avoiding the Blu-ray format entirely when they are working with a more damaged element.

In reality, what you are arguing for with the Vinegar Syndrome model is to release films with more damaged masters on DVD only and skip Blu-ray entirely. Save Blu-ray for masters which are very workable only, and ship off everything else to DVD. In which case for a film like Gods Bloody Acre, it would just stay on DVD with no Blu-ray release ever. Even though this approach is a sound marketing tactic, I don't think its the best approach - if the effort is done for a 2K scan, even if that 2K scan is highly flawed I'd rather have that effort available on Blu-ray than relegated to DVD only to avoid consumer criticism and build higher quality brand perception on boards such as this.



It probably does look amazing compared to the element it was taken from, which reportedly looked like a snowstorm due to damage (likely mold) from sitting in a shed, uncared for many years. There was no other element available for the Director's Cut, so with the damage reportedly as bad as it was and the limited budget it probably was handled as best as possible. Considering the Director's Cut is a notably superior cut of the film, I am very happy Code Red released it despite being visually imperfect.

The Carrier is a turd of a release and looks the part. Polish as you wish and it dosent change facts. Selling new for $19.99 at eBay with ZERO takers. I am still waiting for this GIMPED release to become a “valuable collectors item” like you have been parroting since release .

Meanwhile, hundreds of copies will rot at Bill’s vault or maybe by his crapper, which seems VERY fitting for this release. Nobody wants it...not The Demon, nor Diabolik nor any person that values their money.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Blu Titan

The Carrier is a turd of a release and looks the part. Polish as you wish and it dosent change facts. Selling new for $19.99 at eBay with ZERO takers. I am still waiting for this GIMPED release to become a “valuable collectors item” like you have been parroting since release .

Meanwhile, hundreds of copies will rot at Bill’s vault or maybe by his crapper, which seems VERY fitting for this release. Nobody wants it...not The Demon, nor Diabolik nor any person that values their money.

We can agree to disagree on the value of having the DC of The Carrier available and the issues it has, but to address your "collectors item" status - Diabolik needs to sell through their remaining 33 copies (they were selling pretty fast through their 200 allocation but they hit a wall at around 50 left). Once that happens, DF will be the only site selling the release and can drip it out slowly as has occurred with other problematic CR titles, increasing the scarcity. Scarcity drives high prices, not necessarily whether the Blu has issues or not.

I find it pretty funny that House that Vanished cut print and all regularly sells for $35-$40 new shipped on eBay when its readily available for $25 new shipped on the screenarchives shop, simply because so few people actually know that the screenarchives site even exists.

[Member-222782]

Originally Posted by WoodyO

Do ya think DeFalco is bill's illegitimate love child?

Children don't glow on tree.

[Blu Titan]

Originally Posted by Ruined

We can agree to disagree on the value of having the DC of The Carrier available and the issues it has, but to address your "collectors item" status - Diabolik needs to sell through their remaining 33 copies (they were selling pretty fast through their 200 allocation but they hit a wall at around 50 left). Once that happens, DF will be the only site selling the release and can drip it out slowly as has occurred with other problematic CR titles, increasing the scarcity. Scarcity drives high prices, not necessarily whether the Blu has issues or not.

I find it pretty funny that House that Vanished cut print and all regularly sells for $35-$40 new shipped on eBay when its readily available for $25 new shipped on the screenarchives shop, simply because so few people actually know that the screenarchives site even exists.

There’s no value in The Carrier as it is gimped in all possible ways. Diabolik is not selling this nor anyone else. They may try to unload it but nobody buys.I have thought Micro and Micro economics at MDC in the past...and scarcity in itself does NOT drive prices. Everything is relative to demand and nobody cares that The Carrier was placed “OOP by Code Red” or whatever that nonsense is supposed to mean.

Bill never has nor NEVER will place anything OOP for REAL...he just plays games to increase demand. Most have already, hopefully, figured his game out. It’s it OOP destroy/trash all of the copies. When a person stores hundreds of copies to be sold at a later time that is not “OOP”. Yeah, look at what actually sells at eBay not at the selling prices. Wait...must the magnet that makes it so desirable .

A gimped/defective product will become valuable cause Ruined and The Demon day so and yeah “CR placed it OOP”. Ahahahhahahahaha.

[Blu Titan]

There’s not a single CR title that will EVER be OOP. Necromancy, Savage Streets, Police Connection, Neon Maniacs...anything that is supposedly “sold out” or “OOP” will sooner or later appear for sale at specific places...always at a much higher price than it was available before because it’s now “rare”. *These titles are not defective, and have demand from consumers.

I honestly hope that I am not the only one that knows this . Then, a defective/gimped release that nobody mentioned (I sure a person or two might have) will become a valuable collector because CR has it “OOP” and is holding hundreds of copies by the crapper in his apartment? .

[FarewelltotheFlesh]

I, for one, am looking forward to the Dark Force releases this year. With the Mirror Mirror films, Freeway 2, and Backlot Murders, I'm more than a little happy with their slate. I do hope they look fantastic as every release of these films in the past has been mediocre at best.

[filmo70]

Originally Posted by Zarak

They're 16mm no-budget one-day wonders from the dawn of hardcore cinema, and a lot of the movies in the set had already been released on DVD by Alpha Blue Archives and Something Weird. The VS DVDs are a huge upgrade from the earlier DVD releases.

Some of them look quite good actually. A couple look like puke but I'll wager a guess a beat up pink tinted print is all they got on those.

I also noticed that the Storefront has more complete versions on a few films compared to what Something Weird put out in addition to looking better. I mean everyone should rejoice that 'The Geek' is even longer and more torturous to sit through than ever before