Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[JamesBenjamin]

Originally Posted by Harry Güchenschlong

I don't really understand how an order of knights who defended the galaxy for literally tens of thousands of years is a group whose existence needs to be affirmed after only 20 years of being gone.

Originally Posted by Harry Güchenschlong

Those things are true, it just seems though that anyone who could read would have access to about 100 zillion gigs of history of the galaxy with the jedi all over it. One has to assume a daughter of Han and Leia can read.

Those are valid points, but they're criticism of the first Star Wars (IV) rather than this movie. Even before they made the prequels for 60ish Ben Kenobi to have been lets say, 25 when they happened, that still means people forgot about the Jedi in 35 years.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JamesBenjamin

Those are valid points, but they're criticism of the first Star Wars (IV) rather than this movie. Even before they made the prequels for 60ish Ben Kenobi to have been lets say, 25 when they happened, that still means people forgot about the Jedi in 35 years.

Exactamundo, that's what puzzles me whenever people bring this up in reference to Ep VII. Did Luke know what the Force was? Nope. The Jedi have already become a myth after just 19 (canon) years in the existing Saga so it's not a new development. Factor in people living in the outer rim (where "the Republic doesn't exist out here") and it's easy to see why the Jedi easily slipped into the realm of legend and hearsay.

[stvn1974]

I don't find it hard to believe that the Jedi/Sith and The Force have fallen into myth. Heck, ask a 20 year old today about Watergate, Vietnam or Babe Ruth and they will probably look at you all slack jawed.

[dvdmike]

Laars and Beru made sure Luke was kept away from talk of Jedi

[aiman04]

It's not the years honey, it's the mileage. Could the galaxy forgotten about the Jedi twice in 60 years? The first time it happened it was the works of the Empire that's for sure, erasing the history in the libraries and school syllabus. Heck, that happens even now in our real world. But who could've done it this time? Who blocked Google?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Laars and Beru made sure Luke was kept away from talk of Jedi

Knew that was coming, so I had this ready: but it's not like Luke doesn't have any friends, i.e. people who'd also had to have been similarly sheltered from all things Jedi related for them to have never heard about the Force EVER...unless the Force, the Jedi etc had already long been a source of rumour and conjecture and outright myth.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by aiman04

It's not the years honey, it's the mileage. Could the galaxy forgotten about the Jedi twice in 60 years? The first time it happened it was the works of the Empire that's for sure, erasing the history in the libraries and school syllabus. Heck, that happens even now in our real world. But who could've done it this time? Who blocked Google?

The OT was hardly the second coming of the Jedi, it's not like there were thousands of them roaming all over the galaxy again. By the time it finished there was a grand total of one, the two Big Kahunas that were in hiding having died anyway.

I think there's always been the assumption (fostered by the EU, to be fair) that the Jedi subsequently flourished after the fall of the Empire but what if they didn't? What if the New Republic (is it even called that in the new movie?) found it tough to convince thousands of systems to come over to their side (the galaxy was already riven once by the Clone Wars, let's not forget), especially while the First Order are probably busy denying that the Emperor was even killed and that it's business as usual? If the Chinese, North Koreans etc can exact such control over their citizens on just this puny planet of ours, imagine how much more isolated people would be on one side of a galaxy to the other.

[Spike M.]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The OT was hardly the second coming of the Jedi, it's not like there were thousands of them roaming all over the galaxy again. By the time it finished there was a grand total of one, the two Big Kahunas that were in hiding having died anyway.

I think there's always been the assumption (fostered by the EU, to be fair) that the Jedi subsequently flourished after the fall of the Empire but what if they didn't? What if the New Republic (is it even called that in the new movie?) found it tough to convince thousands of systems to come over to their side (the galaxy was already riven once by the Clone Wars, let's not forget), especially while the First Order are probably busy denying that the Emperor was even killed and that it's business as usual? If the Chinese, North Koreans etc can exact such control over their citizens on just this puny planet of ours, imagine how much more isolated people would be on one side of a galaxy to the other.

Plus, the idea is that for Anakin to fulfill the prophecy and bring balance to the force, he needed to first destroy the Jedi order and then overthrow the Sith. Both were necessary functions to "balance", which contextually just means a "cleansing" of a rotting system. This is could easily be enough to give Luke pause when it came about to reestablishing the order.

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Knew that was coming, so I had this ready: but it's not like Luke doesn't have any friends, i.e. people who'd also had to have been similarly sheltered from all things Jedi related for them to have never heard about the Force EVER...unless the Force, the Jedi etc had already long been a source of rumour and conjecture and outright myth.

Luke knew a bit about the war when he was asking Ben about the Clone wars so I think we can assume he at least heard of the Jedi through the rumors. Any information about the Jedi is a rumor spread by word of mouth, the Empire has erased any official information in the databanks and blocked websites like a communist governments usually do. But after the Empire, who could've suppressed the information? The remnants of the Empire might still exists, but I doubt the First Order have similar control to the whole galaxy, including Coruscant.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The OT was hardly the second coming of the Jedi, it's not like there were thousands of them roaming all over the galaxy again. By the time it finished there was a grand total of one, the two Big Kahunas that were in hiding having died anyway.

I think there's always been the assumption (fostered by the EU, to be fair) that the Jedi subsequently flourished after the fall of the Empire but what if they didn't? What if the New Republic (is it even called that in the new movie?) found it tough to convince thousands of systems to come over to their side (the galaxy was already riven once by the Clone Wars, let's not forget), especially while the First Order are probably busy denying that the Emperor was even killed and that it's business as usual? If the Chinese, North Koreans etc can exact such control over their citizens on just this puny planet of ours, imagine how much more isolated people would be on one side of a galaxy to the other.

Yeah but it seems very lazy as a writer, why choose to have the history repeat itself when you can write something different? It will also be natural given the events of Episode VI, to have the good guys regain control of the galaxy for once. This will allow Luke to establish the New Jedi order, the title of the last film indicate not just the return of Luke but the Jedi as a whole (just like the Sith in Episode III) after they've been banished from the galaxy and the history. In fact it would be something fresh where they could have the remnants of the Empire and "Sith wannabes" be the Resistance instead.

PS: China and North Korea never had their government toppled so that's not relevant. The Soviet Union maybe, crumbled for 26 years now but still haven't come back.

PPS: I never read EU.

[Geoff D]

But again, you seem to be thinking along the lines that the whole galaxy is seamlessly interconnected just like this lil' planet of ours; it's not. Look how easy it was for the Trade Federation to jam the outgoing signals from Naboo in Ep I, and even Vader had to get his chauffeur to move the Executor out of the Asteroid field to send a clear transmission to Palps in Ep V. It just seems logical to me that information is easier to suppress when you've got an entire galaxy to cover.

I do agree that going back to the Rebels Good/Empire Bad dynamic is more than a little fan-servicey but it's not something that bothers me in the slightest. Lucas tried something different in the prequels and it fell flat on its arse (IMO), so I don't want different right now. Different can come later. I just want an old-fashioned SW romp with the flashiest effects that the 21st century can muster.

[spiderfan1985]

People, people please! Enough with all this speculation that is a curse to movies like this that are deliberately shrouded in mystery by their makers. Nobody on here knows what Abrams is concocting. All this talk of "ewww it's not fresh anymore" is pointless at this juncture. The film is less than two months away, I've already ordered my ticket for opening night (in good old fashioned 2D thank you), and the trailers have been promising teases rather than just giving away the whole thing. Can we not wait and see for ourselves without everyone and their uncle's grandmother trying to figure out what it's all going to be like? Can we not have some genuine surprise here for once? ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? Please? Love ya'll!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Spike M.

Plus, the idea is that for Anakin to fulfill the prophecy and bring balance to the force, he needed to first destroy the Jedi order and then overthrow the Sith. Both were necessary functions to "balance", which contextually just means a "cleansing" of a rotting system. This is could easily be enough to give Luke pause when it came about to reestablishing the order.

Yep. Heck, who's to say that the Jedi were not still seen as warmongers in the thousands of systems who joined the Separatists in the Clone Wars? After all, the Clone Wars didn't so much as finish as segue straight into the destruction of the Jedi and the rise of the Empire so the last memory some worlds had of the Jedi were as conquering warriors, not peacenik space monks, and the Clones themselves became instruments of a dictatorship - all of which would've left a very sour taste throughout the galaxy towards the Jedi. I hope Luke didn't buy up too many flyers and T-shirts when he started up his new Jedi school! Probably had them buried for landfill on Tatooine somewhere.

Guys, I totally get that the happy-happy-joy-joy ending of Jedi will be cruelly deflated by Ep VII (and I've said before about how the original Endor-only version will actually work better going into the new trilogy because it doesn't show the celebrations on other worlds) but I'll look upon it as more of a celebration of the end of the 6-episode Palpatine/Vader show, and not the Empire as a whole.

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But again, you seem to be thinking along the lines that the whole galaxy is seamlessly interconnected just like this lil' planet of ours; it's not. Look how easy it was for the Trade Federation to jam the outgoing signals from Naboo in Ep I, and even Vader had to get his chauffeur to move the Executor out of the Asteroid field to send a clear transmission to Palps in Ep V. It just seems logical to me that information is easier to suppress when you've got an entire galaxy to cover.

I do agree that going back to the Rebels Good/Empire Bad dynamic is more than a little fan-servicey but it's not something that bothers me in the slightest. Lucas tried something different in the prequels and it fell flat on its arse (IMO), so I don't want different right now. Different can come later. I just want an old-fashioned SW romp with the flashiest effects that the 21st century can muster.

Thank you. That is my whole point, it is very clear that is exactly what JJ was thinking. Arndt's script had the original three in the background and focus on new characters and new story, but JJ wants more screen time for old characters, more Millennium Falcon, more X-Wings, more TIE Fighters, more deserts, more snow, more forest, more nostalgia. Safe.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by spiderfan1985

People, people please! Enough with all this speculation that is a curse to movies like this that are deliberately shrouded in mystery by their makers. Nobody on here knows what Abrams is concocting. All this talk of "ewww it's not fresh anymore" is pointless at this juncture. The film is less than two months away, I've already ordered my ticket for opening night (in good old fashioned 2D thank you), and the trailers have been promising teases rather than just giving away the whole thing. Can we not wait and see for ourselves without everyone and their uncle's grandmother trying to figure out what it's all going to be like? Can we not have some genuine surprise here for once? ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? Please? Love ya'll!

Come on man, it's bad enough that civilised discourse about the Saga gets deleted up in here, now we can't even discuss what we think the movie will be like? It doesn't mean it'll actually end up like that, y'know?

I spoilered the excrement out of Sith, so much so it kinda ruined the first viewing because I'd read the script, heard loads of dialogue samples (leaked from a Trivial Pursuit DVD game, I think) and so on, so I've been very good this time. Yeah, I've read all the big "spoiler" reports but they each only seem to contain a grain of truth (JJ's misinformation squad hard at work?) against what we've seen so far, which isn't much, so I'm still insanely excited and very much in the dark about what I'm gonna see come December. But that don't mean I don't wanna shoot the breeze about it now with like-minded folks...

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by aiman04

Thank you. That is my whole point, it is very clear that is exactly what JJ was thinking. Arndt's script had the original three in the background and focus on new characters and new story, but JJ wants more screen time for old characters, more Millennium Falcon, more X-Wings, more TIE Fighters, more deserts, more snow, more forest, more nostalgia. Safe.

Safe, yes. But different can come later, as we're about to be deluged by a ton of SW movies in the next few years so why can't we indulge ourselves with some sheer fun first up? Last thing I want is more trade disputes, bro.

[Col. Zombie]

Originally Posted by Harry Güchenschlong

Those things are true, it just seems though that anyone who could read would have access to about 100 zillion gigs of history of the galaxy with the jedi all over it. One has to assume a daughter of Han and Leia can read.

Originally Posted by JamesBenjamin

Those are valid points, but they're criticism of the first Star Wars (IV) rather than this movie. Even before they made the prequels for 60ish Ben Kenobi to have been lets say, 25 when they happened, that still means people forgot about the Jedi in 35 years.

This.

And I think we're dealing with like 50ish (more than 20 for certain) years since the events in Sith.

The more recent "Rebels", I guess official canon, seems to suggest that the Emperor erased all data pertaining to the Jedi order and the force for that matter. Even Darth Vader's inner circle appear to doubt and question the force, as in Episode IV when he "force chokes" that one military cat who had the audacity to question Darth's "sorcerer's ways." Even they seem to be skeptical.

Even Han Solo, who has been from one end of the galaxy to the other, hasn't seen anything that would make him believe that there is an all powerful force that controls everything. He doesn't seem to believe in the force or Jedi. I'm pretty sure he can read, at least a little bit.

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by spiderfan1985

People, people please! Enough with all this speculation that is a curse to movies like this that are deliberately shrouded in mystery by their makers. Nobody on here knows what Abrams is concocting. All this talk of "ewww it's not fresh anymore" is pointless at this juncture. The film is less than two months away, I've already ordered my ticket for opening night (in good old fashioned 2D thank you), and the trailers have been promising teases rather than just giving away the whole thing. Can we not wait and see for ourselves without everyone and their uncle's grandmother trying to figure out what it's all going to be like? Can we not have some genuine surprise here for once? ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? Please? Love ya'll!

It's a civilized discussion, and very relevant to the thread. Quite important if you ask me. No spoilers, all based only on what have been officially released, nothing is confirmed until we see it, opinions will be more informed. I will be there the very first show on December 16th and put up my thought in an hour.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Col. Zombie

This.

And I think we're dealing with like 50ish (more than 20 for certain) years since the events in Sith.

The more recent "Rebels", I guess official canon, seems to suggest that the Emperor erased all data pertaining to the Jedi order and the force for that matter. Even Darth Vader's inner circle appear to doubt and question the force, as in Episode IV when he "force chokes" that one military cat who had the audacity to question Darth's "sorcerer's ways." Even they seem to be skeptical.

Even Han Solo, who has been from one end of the galaxy to the other, hasn't seen anything that would make him believe that there and all powerful force that controls everything. He doesn't seem to believe in the force or Jedi. I'm pretty sure he can read, at least a little bit.

Maybe Han didn't have google? Yeah, that's gotta be it.

[spiderfan1985]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Come on man, it's bad enough that civilised discourse about the Saga gets deleted up in here, now we can't even discuss what we think the movie will be like? It doesn't mean it'll actually end up like that, y'know?

I spoilered the excrement out of Sith, so much so it kinda ruined the first viewing because I'd read the script, heard loads of dialogue samples (leaked from a Trivial Pursuit DVD game, I think) and so on, so I've been very good this time. Yeah, I've read all the big "spoiler" reports but they each only seem to contain a grain of truth (JJ's misinformation squad hard at work?) against what we've seen so far, which isn't much, so I'm still insanely excited and very much in the dark about what I'm gonna see come December. But that don't mean I don't wanna shoot the breeze about it now with like-minded folks...

Originally Posted by aiman04

It's a civilized discussion, and very relevant to the thread. Quite important if you ask me. No spoilers, all based only on what have been officially released, nothing is confirmed until we see it, opinions will be more informed. I will be there the very first show on December 16th and put up my thought in an hour.

I do hope you both know that I wasn't being all too serious. Sorry of it seemed that way, but I really wasn't aiming for that. I'm bad about spoiling things for myself and I've tried recently to get better about that when I can. Abrams is helping a lot with his previews. I wasn't saying you guys were being uncivil.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by spiderfan1985

I do hope you both know that I wasn't being all too serious. Sorry of it seemed that way, but I really wasn't aiming for that. I'm bad about spoiling things for myself and I've tried recently to get better about that when I can. Abrams is helping a lot with his previews. I wasn't saying you guys were being uncivil.

Always hard to judge on the internet, tone is.

To go back to Han's "conversion", that's something I'm really looking forward to in the new movie: Han's now the true believer trying to convince a young upstart while others presumably scoff at his claims. It's funny how when Lucas "rhymes" his movies he's some sort of genius, while if the new regime does it, it's "lazy".