Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[TheAtomizer]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

Do you even know what you are talking about? This isn't a matter of I don't like what John Williams wrote for these scenes, it's litterly George Lucas and Ben Burt took cues from Phantom Menace, hacked them to pieces and stuck them on the soundtrack during almost the entire score from the part in the arena scene when music kicks in when the Jedis show up until right before the confrontation with Dooku. It really gives the movie the feel of a Star Wars video game like Battlefront or something that does a similar thing during gameplay.

Yes being in music, I know quite right what I'm talking about, do you? Once again that is trivial to the actual movie and you know that does happen quite some times in movies where they will take cues from different movies if it's the same franchise and stick them where they think maybe it's some relevant point to the story or just a background ambiance to the flow. It's nothing to say it's "unbearable" to say the least.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by TheAtomizer

Yes being in music, I know quite right what I'm talking about, do you? Once again that is trivial to the actual movie and you know that does happen quite some times in movies where they will take cues from different movies if it's the same franchise and stick them where they think maybe it's some relevant point to the story or just a background ambiance to the flow. It's nothing to say it's "unbearable" to say the least.

Yeah cheap kung-fu movies do it all the time. Glad George thought it was a good idea to make the music of John Williams into nothing more than disjointed background ambiance.

[Kirk Out]

[TheAtomizer]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

Yeah cheap kung-fu movies do it all the time. Glad George thought it was a good idea to make the music of John Williams into nothing more than disjointed background ambiance.

Yeah cheap kung-fu movies do it some, why can't Star Wars do it where they think it might be relevant? Maybe John Williams didn't mind it anyway, did you think of that? Either way, as I stated movie franchises do that. Harry Potter had obvious cues from their line of movies in different scenes that you can bicker about since that matters to you, but since this is Star Wars and apparently a holy grail then it probably won't happen.

[TheAtomizer]

Originally Posted by Kirk Out

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by TheAtomizer

Yeah cheap kung-fu movies do it some, why can't Star Wars do it where they think it might be relevant? Maybe John Williams didn't mind it anyway, did you think of that? Either way, as I stated movie franchises do that. Harry Potter had obvious cues from their line of movies in different scenes that you can bicker about since that matters to you, but since this is Star Wars and apparently a holy grail then it probably won't happen.

Not really too familiar with Harry Potter since I could barely make it through the first film, but are the cues directly taken from previous films and chopped up and lobbed all over the place like what was done with Williams' Phantom Menace score in the last act of AOTC, or are they reorchestrations to fit into a new score? If it's a reorchestration, that's fine, but like I said when you hack and slash and dump music cues into a new film in the franchise it reeks of a bad 70's Kung-fu movie or television.

[TheAtomizer]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

Not really too familiar with Harry Potter since I could barely make it through the first film, but are the cues directly taken from previous films and chopped up and lobbed all over the place like what was done with Williams' Phantom Menace score in the last act of AOTC, or are they reorchestrations to fit into a new score? If it's a reorchestration, that's fine, but like I said when you hack and slash and dump music cues into a new film in the franchise it reeks of a bad 70's Kung-fu movie or television.

As what I can remember they aren't just certain cues, not full re-orchestrations no, although some I believe were depending on the scene and what's happening. Some were just familiar leitmotifs they cue back. I wouldn't call any a hack and slash job unless it really was horrible horrible sound editing and score arranging, but none of that stands out to me, either Harry Potter or really Star Wars that much. Is that the only "sound" beef you have, or does the other prequels equally have something along those same lines that irritate you?

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by TheAtomizer

As what I can remember they aren't just certain cues, not full re-orchestrations no, although some I believe were depending on the scene and what's happening. Some were just familiar leitmotifs they cue back. I wouldn't call any a hack and slash job unless it really was horrible horrible sound editing and score arranging, but none of that stands out to me, either Harry Potter or really Star Wars that much. Is that the only "sound" beef you have, or does the other prequels equally have something along those same lines that irritate you?

That's the biggest offender. There are other cues that are hacked and slashed to a degree in Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith, but nothing to the insane amount that's in that last act of Attack of the Clones. I would guess at least part of the scoring decision there was because those segments just weren't done when John Williams was scoring in what I would presume was early 2002, but still they could've done something better, or heck, with how special edition crazy Lucas is he could've had Williams score that section at some future point.

Watching the film over a decade on it just adds to the cheap quality that I believe Attack of the Clones oozes in spades. Sure I've got my problems with Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith, but most of those are with the script and acting not the craftsmanship. I don't know if it was the experimental HD cameras, Lucas rushing his film for release, or what but it just feels to pale in comparison not only to the other Star Wars films, but even other films from the era. If I hadn't just watched the film again for the first time in years, I wouldn't even be talking about it since my memories of the film were actually kinder than the reality. If Attack of the Clones didn't have the name Star Wars attached to it I think we'd be talking of it more like we do other big budget CGI fails of the era like The Mummy Returns.

[Kryptonic]

The cues from TPM work for their scenes in AOTC. I think it's that simple. The climax of AOTC was re-edited several times and many of the cues just wouldn't work with the final cut and Williams just didn't have time to craft new music.

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

The cues from TPM work for their scenes in AOTC. I think it's that simple. The climax of AOTC was re-edited several times and many of the cues just wouldn't work with the final cut and Williams just didn't have time to craft new music.

That's true. Please have a look at the making of books. AOTC had the most changes to the third act including re-shoots, most of them were at the very last minutes. I've never even thought that they did it on purpose, on John Williams?Really?

[Strevlac]

The hacking and slashing of the score in Attack of the Clones is well known. John Williams was not the least bit happy about it and made his feelings public at the time.

[Geoff D]

Yeah, the AOTC score is fubar. Are people seriously suggesting that tracking in all those cues from TPM were deliberate artistic choices and that they work for the better? No, they were slugged in there at the last minute because Lucas simply couldn't pin down his edit and Williams was left high and dry having already recorded his score.

It makes a bad movie worse because it's so utterly amateurish. And it's no surprise that people didn't pick up on the slight re-edits on the Blu-ray version that fudge with the score even more, because it was so ****ed to begin with.

Williams' treatment was all the more painful because his work on TPM and ROTS was so superb. I still get chills listening to Duel Of The Fates or Battle Of The Heroes or Anakin's Dark Deeds (especially from 2:14 onwards; "Anakin is the father, isn't he? I'm so sorry..."), but something went badly wrong on AOTC. Still, it speaks for Williams' powers that he STILL managed to bash out a beautiful love theme with Across The Stars even though Lucas and Ben Burtt were trying their damndest to ruin his work on AOTC.

[Astro Zombie]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

[Show spoiler]Yeah, the AOTC score is fubar. Are people seriously suggesting that tracking in all those cues from TPM were deliberate artistic choices and that they work for the better? No, they were slugged in there at the last minute because Lucas simply couldn't pin down his edit and Williams was left high and dry having already recorded his score.

It makes a bad movie worse because it's so utterly amateurish. And it's no surprise that people didn't pick up on the slight re-edits on the Blu-ray version that fudge with the score even more, because it was so ****ed to begin with.

Williams' treatment was all the more painful because his work on TPM and ROTS was so superb. I still get chills listening to Duel Of The Fates or Battle Of The Heroes or Anakin's Dark Deeds (especially from 2:14 onwards; "Anakin is the father, isn't he? I'm so sorry..."), but something went badly wrong on AOTC. Still, it speaks for Williams' powers that he STILL managed to bash out a beautiful love theme with Across The Stars even though Lucas and Ben Burtt were trying their damndest to ruin his work on AOTC.

I love Across the Stars. That's one of Williams' greatest pieces.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, the AOTC score is fubar. Are people seriously suggesting that tracking in all those cues from TPM were deliberate artistic choices and that they work for the better? No, they were slugged in there at the last minute because Lucas simply couldn't pin down his edit and Williams was left high and dry having already recorded his score.

It makes a bad movie worse because it's so utterly amateurish. And it's no surprise that people didn't pick up on the slight re-edits on the Blu-ray version that fudge with the score even more, because it was so ****ed to begin with.

Williams' treatment was all the more painful because his work on TPM and ROTS was so superb. I still get chills listening to Duel Of The Fates or Battle Of The Heroes or Anakin's Dark Deeds (especially from 2:14 onwards; "Anakin is the father, isn't he? I'm so sorry..."), but something went badly wrong on AOTC. Still, it speaks for Williams' powers that he STILL managed to bash out a beautiful love theme with Across The Stars even though Lucas and Ben Burtt were trying their damndest to ruin his work on AOTC.

Did you watch the doc Within a Minute that was on the ROTS DVD? There is a section where they are doing the audio editing for the final battle. It's when the big arm piece breaks off and plummets into the lava with Anikan and Obi-wan still on it. Williams is obviously arguing for more score, but Burtt is in there and he is trying to drown it out and crank up his sound effects. He gets noticeably flustered and pretty much acts like a child all because William's doesn't want the score drowned out by creaking metal sound effects. Finally Lucas has to basically play dad and tell Burtt to cam down and they compromise on the score and sound effects.

I can't imagine what it is like to work with Burtt. The way he talks about sound fx on commentaries and docs...the man is obsessed and frankly annoying as ****. Yes, sound fx are very important tho I'd argue foley is far more important in the grand scheme and a much less forgiving job with none of the recognition. Anyways, all sound fx are important, but Burtt acts like they are the "MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE UNIVERSE!" and whines like a baby when his precious sound fx aren't front and center. On commentaries he never shuts up about every minute detail, and I'm willing to bet money he is the main culprit behind AOTC's butchered score. I just want to punch him in his face, and let him record the sound of his own face breaking.

Hopefully, Abrams puts him in his place, and offers Williams the respect and working environment he deserves.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Most of you probably know already, but the AOTC soundtrack cues were indeed changed in the blu-ray release compared to the DVD soundtrack toward the end of the film. For some reason, Lucas switched the Yoda scene looking at Obi-Wan and Anakin and Dooku taking off. This in turn, screws up the flow of the score because they did not adjust the score when they changed the scenes around. Kind of annoys me because I'm a soundtrack guy and I love the flow of things. Hopefully one day we will get a corrected "score version" of the score/film in HD!

[Cook]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Most of you probably know already, but the AOTC soundtrack cues were indeed changed in the blu-ray release compared to the DVD soundtrack toward the end of the film. For some reason, Lucas switched the Yoda scene looking at Obi-Wan and Anakin and Dooku taking off. This in turn, screws up the flow of the score because they did not adjust the score when they changed the scenes around. Kind of annoys me because I'm a soundtrack guy and I love the flow of things. Hopefully one day we will get a corrected "score version" of the score/film in HD!

I haven't watched the AOTC bluray, but I knew they switched the scenes. I assumed they fixed the score to match. That is some amateur level shit! Even fan-editors do their best with their limited resources to fix the audio when they cut and change stuff. Lucas has freakin Lucas Sound at his disposal and doesn't even bother to correct the score...what a lazy ass.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Most of you probably know already, but the AOTC soundtrack cues were indeed changed in the blu-ray release compared to the DVD soundtrack toward the end of the film. For some reason, Lucas switched the Yoda scene looking at Obi-Wan and Anakin and Dooku taking off. This in turn, screws up the flow of the score because they did not adjust the score when they changed the scenes around. Kind of annoys me because I'm a soundtrack guy and I love the flow of things. Hopefully one day we will get a corrected "score version" of the score/film in HD!

The same thing happens in the re-arranged "stay away from power couplings" bit in the speeder chase, the music is dialled back for a few seconds otherwise it'd be completely out of whack.

And yes, this is PROPER amateur level shit because surely Lucasfilm, the makers of the ****ing movie, would have access to the separate DME audio tracks so that they could re-order the scenes and remix the audio without fudging the music? Er......nope.

AOTC is the biggest bodge-job of the Star Wars movies, and that reputation carried over even into the Blu-ray release.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Cook

Did you watch the doc Within a Minute that was on the ROTS DVD? There is a section where they are doing the audio editing for the final battle. It's when the big arm piece breaks off and plummets into the lava with Anikan and Obi-wan still on it. Williams is obviously arguing for more score, but Burtt is in there and he is trying to drown it out and crank up his sound effects. He gets noticeably flustered and pretty much acts like a child all because William's doesn't want the score drowned out by creaking metal sound effects. Finally Lucas has to basically play dad and tell Burtt to cam down and they compromise on the score and sound effects.

I can't imagine what it is like to work with Burtt. The way he talks about sound fx on commentaries and docs...the man is obsessed and frankly annoying as ****. Yes, sound fx are very important tho I'd argue foley is far more important in the grand scheme and a much less forgiving job with none of the recognition. Anyways, all sound fx are important, but Burtt acts like they are the "MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE UNIVERSE!" and whines like a baby when his precious sound fx aren't front and center. On commentaries he never shuts up about every minute detail, and I'm willing to bet money he is the main culprit behind AOTC's butchered score. I just want to punch him in his face, and let him record the sound of his own face breaking.

Hopefully, Abrams puts him in his place, and offers Williams the respect and working environment he deserves.

Yep. Williams had similar battles with Burtt and his 'sonic depth charges' in AOTC. Don't get me wrongo, that's a great bit of mixing but it shows how much clout Burtt has gained over the years, from being a lovable kook collecting his sounds to someone who can basically tell Jazzy Johnny Williams to go **** himself. (Williams managed to finally get some score into that scene, it kicks in out of nowhere when Jango fires the missile at Obi-Wan, more great mixing )

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Most of you probably know already, but the AOTC soundtrack cues were indeed changed in the blu-ray release compared to the DVD soundtrack toward the end of the film. For some reason, Lucas switched the Yoda scene looking at Obi-Wan and Anakin and Dooku taking off. This in turn, screws up the flow of the score because they did not adjust the score when they changed the scenes around. Kind of annoys me because I'm a soundtrack guy and I love the flow of things. Hopefully one day we will get a corrected "score version" of the score/film in HD!

Wait a minute, are you seriously stating that George Lucas made a change to a Star Wars film that didn't need to be made in the first place that ended up causing an inconsistency? I don't believe it.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Wait a minute, are you seriously stating that George Lucas made a change to a Star Wars film that didn't need to be made in the first place that ended up causing an inconsistency? I don't believe it.