Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Extreme example - child molester goes to prison to atone, attends therapy/counselling/treatment whatever else is required, comes out of prison truly sorry for what he has done. Is he redeemed in the eyes of most people ? I doubt it, thought religious doctrine might suggest he is.

This is a very archaic point of view.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

This is a very archaic point of view.

Archaic in what sense ?? Out of date ? Uneducated ?? Not sure why that is relevant, nor am I suggesting what my point of view is, just that it is a very prevalent reaction in society even today, whether you agree with it or not.

Archaic or not, it illustrates the difference between atonement and redemption they are two different things - one is an active thing you do, one is something you have to be granted by others

Redemption, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder

[ChainsawJedi]

It's an unenlightened point of view, that's what it is.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

It's an unenlightened point of view, that's what it is.

But do you not also think it is a common point of view in society too ?? In any event it was an illustrative example of the difference between atonement and redemption not a show of support or otherwise for the particular point of view expressed.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

But do you not also think it is a common point of view in society too ?? In any event it was an illustrative example of the difference between atonement and redemption not a show of support or otherwise for the particular point of view expressed.

Yes, I do think it's a common point of view in society. I think that the forces that judged Anakin's soul to be redeemed are a little loftier than that!

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

Yes, I do think it's a common point of view in society. I think that the forces that judged Anakin's soul to be redeemed are a little loftier than that!

Yes I agree with that in the sense that the Force judged him to be redeemed. Im just saying that equally it is also acceptable that the film leaves some people/viewers believing that he is not redeemed in their eyes regardless of what he has done to atone.

Perhaps in a sense, the film made an error here as Luke has been the audience's guide/moral conscience so to speak and his decision to forgive in some ways is intended to reflect our own feelings in some way and that doesn't sit well with some. Maybe an acknowledgement by Obi Wan as part of the Force would have been sufficient to convey the same message. In fact, lets just lose the Force Ghosts at the end... Lucas another change in needed!!! Noooooooo!!!!

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Yes I agree with that in the sense that the Force judged him to be redeemed. Im just saying that equally it is also acceptable that the film leaves some people/viewers believing that he is not redeemed in their eyes regardless of what he has done to atone.

Perhaps in a sense, the film made an error here as Luke has been the audience's guide/moral conscience so to speak and his decision to forgive in some ways is intended to reflect our own feelings in some way and that doesn't sit well with some. Maybe an acknowledgement by Obi Wan as part of the Force would have been sufficient to convey the same message. In fact, lets just lose the Force Ghosts at the end... Lucas another change in needed!!! Noooooooo!!!!

Nooooooo!!!! indeed

Forgiveness does not come readily to some people, that is true. Luke is the bigger person than Obi-wan and Yoda - both of whom seemed quite content to let Luke kill Vader, whether he knew he was his father or not - and also deals with loss much better than his father did.

But, yes, the three ghosts overlooking the teddy bear's picnic at the end might be a little too cutesy for some, especially compared to the earlier scene of Vader's armour being consumed on the funeral pyre.

[Ernest Rister]

I don't know if it is possible to be "redeemed" after slaughtering children, to say nothing of standing by while an entire planet of unarmed peaceful citizens is vaporized. Again, Vader atones with the only thing he has -- his own life. There's nothing else he can give. It's not like he was going to set up a fund for reparations at that point or do community service or spend 3 billion life sentences in prison (and who knows what he did off screen between Episode 3 and 4).

[Ernest Rister]

Oh, and just blurting this out there -- I thought the entire point of Luke learning to become a Jedi was the singular moment where he threw down his weapon. That's why I thought it awesome when Qui-Gon knelt and meditated during the Darth Maul fight, and odd when Yoda was so quick to combat in Episodes II and III. I guess I wanted a more zen Yoda, so powerful with the Force that he would never need to fight, and attempts to injure him in combat would be futile, as he would just wave them off.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

I don't know if it is possible to be "redeemed" after slaughtering children, to say nothing of standing by while an entire planet of unarmed peaceful citizens is vaporized. Again, Vader atones with the only thing he has -- his own life. There's nothing else he can give. It's not like he was going to set up a fund for reparations at that point or do community service or spend 3 billion life sentences in prison (and who knows what he did off screen between Episode 3 and 4).

In the eyes of pretty much every religion in the world it is I would think and since the Force is a quasi-religious thing wouldn't it make sense he would be redeemed ?

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Oh, and just blurting this out there -- I thought the entire point of Luke learning to become a Jedi was the singular moment where he threw down his weapon. That's why I thought it awesome when Qui-Gon knelt and meditated during the Darth Maul fight, and odd when Yoda was so quick to combat in Episodes II and III. I guess I wanted a more zen Yoda, so powerful with the Force that he would never need to fight, and attempts to injure him in combat would be futile, as he would just wave them off.

I think Luke was an even better Jedi than anyone in the end. He was prepared to give his life even when most could have understood him actually going through with it and finishing Vader.' The whole scene with him losing it and then regaining his composure and realising what he has done is the single greatest moment of the entire saga for me! Luke was always my favourite character growing up and this scene had a massive effect on me as a child and I still love it.

I agree that great though it was seeing Yoda fight, it did take some of the mystique away from the character. But Dooku started it I think even in III Yoda was reactive in fights until after the Order 66 and then I think he was a little pissed at all the dead Jedi!!!

[ChainsawJedi]

"Never. I'll never join you. You've failed Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

Strong meat from Skywalker Jnr. And I love the way he cocks his head in the direction of Vader at the end of his speech.

Luke is at his best in ROTJ. Whether it be when he enters Jabba's palace and wordlessly strangles the guards - shades of Vader there, to be sure - or when he confronts Vader on Endor and pleads with him to let go of his hate and leave the Emperor, he has reached a level of maturity and wisdom that even his mentors could not achieve. After all, he rejects the philosophy that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny". Before Luke, the Jedi held to the belief that no Sith could ever return to the light side of the Force.

I'd be interested to see what Lawrence Kasdan does with this in the screenplay for Episode VII - for me, he is this film's "only hope"

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

In the eyes of pretty much every religion in the world it is I would think and since the Force is a quasi-religious thing wouldn't it make sense he would be redeemed ?

Yeah, but in that instance - speaking as a Catholic - God is the one who forigves. Humans can only try to find it in themselves to reach that kind of inner peace to forgive someone like Vader. It's an old theological question from Sunday School -- "Can we forgive Hitler? Chew on that, and here's some lemon aid."

This whole discussion is making me want to watch Joffe's THE MISSION again.

The Mission (1986): Redemption (Redención) - YouTube

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Yeah, but in that instance - speaking as a Catholic - God is the one who forigves. Humans can only try to find it in themselves to reach that kind of inner peace to forgive someone like Vader. It's an old theological question from Sunday School -- "Can we forgive Hitler? Chew on that, and here's some lemon aid."

This whole discussion is making me want to watch Joffe's THE MISSION again.

The Mission (1986): Redemption (Redención) - YouTube

Sorry Ernest, I agree with the point ( as a slightly lapsed Catholic myself ) but not sure what ur trying to say with regards to Jedi, though I think we both agree God/The Force forgives, others may have a slightly harder time...

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Yeah, but in that instance - speaking as a Catholic - God is the one who forigves. Humans can only try to find it in themselves to reach that kind of inner peace to forgive someone like Vader. It's an old theological question from Sunday School -- "Can we forgive Hitler? Chew on that, and here's some lemon aid."

I think the issue of Vader's self sacrifice, of letting go of his attachment to self and accepting death willingly, has much more to do with Far Eastern philosophies than it does catholicism.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

I think the issue of Vader's self sacrifice, of letting go of his attachment to self and accepting death willingly, has much more to do with Far Eastern philosophies than it does catholicism.

Sure. I think there are a lot of different religions in there but the redemption/forgiveness angle reminds me very much of my Catholic upbringing. But I'm sure it equally applies to others

[ChainsawJedi]

Not being brought up as a catholic, I don't know much about it. I was a church of england lad, myself, but watching the films now makes me think a lot about buddhism. Perhaps it's the prequels that have put the original films in that light for me - certainly the line in ROTS about learning to let go of everything you fear to lose and the Sith's attachment to self being such an obstacle to them joining with the Force.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Oh, and just blurting this out there -- I thought the entire point of Luke learning to become a Jedi was the singular moment where he threw down his weapon. That's why I thought it awesome when Qui-Gon knelt and meditated during the Darth Maul fight, and odd when Yoda was so quick to combat in Episodes II and III. I guess I wanted a more zen Yoda, so powerful with the Force that he would never need to fight, and attempts to injure him in combat would be futile, as he would just wave them off.

But that's one of the things that Lucas did with the prequels that actually worked for me: the Jedi were manipulated into becoming these warriors and leaders of men which greatly clouded their judgement, and even Yoda is not immune to it. That's why it's all the more powerful when Luke renounces violence and embraces his love of his father. (Incidentally, that last point is something which seems to be overlooked when people are discussing Vader's atonement/redemption/whatever; if Luke can forgive him, then we as an audience surely can?)

As for your last point Ernest, if you think back to the actual Yoda/Dooku fight scene in Clones, you'll recall that Dooku does actually try to fight him using the Force alone, but Yoda cancels out his powers which is why they take up arms. And what's what I love about the Senate fight between him and Palpatine, it's kind of a reverse, because they start with their 'sabers and then they start throwing shit around. I love that scene.

[ChainsawJedi]

Absolutely. Luke is the one we should aspire to be, the man who can forgive and can transcend.

And I'm a fan of the duel between Palpatine and Yoda in the Senate chamber, too. Literally tearing the place apart whilst, figuratively, the Republic is being torn apart, too.

I do wonder about these people who dismiss the prequels as little more than a load of CGI effects and dodgy dialogue. Have they really watched them and they're just too thick to notice just how much is going on in the films or are they - as I suspect - simply trotting out well-worn phrases like "Mannequin Skywalker" because they read them somewhere on the internet?

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

I do wonder about these people who dismiss the prequels as little more than a load of CGI effects and dodgy dialogue. Have they really watched them and they're just too thick to notice just how much is going on in the films or are they - as I suspect - simply trotting out well-worn phrases like "Mannequin Skywalker" because they read them somewhere on the internet?

Irrespective of the themes, ideas and macro story that Lucas included in the prequels, you have to admit that the execution is pretty poorly done in a lot of areas. The prequel story has a depth and complexity to it that simply wasn't supported by the dialogue, editing and direction in quite a few scenes. Its no wonder that some have tried to edit them (and I think that speaks as much to how much people wanted the prequels to be brilliant) because there are so many little tweaks that could improve pacing and cuts to dialogue that could make it better. I don't hate them and I quite enjoy a lot of what the offer, but they are not in the same league as IV and V - III is probably close to the level of VI but has different issues.

Incidentally, that last point is something which seems to be overlooked when people are discussing Vader's atonement/redemption/whatever; if Luke can forgive him, then we as an audience surely can?

I don't think people overlook it, they just don't think they can.