Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

You're confusing redemption with atonement. The first is born from personal forgiveness in the eyes of the wrong, while the latter is the attempt for reconciliation by the evildoer. Anakin did what he could do save his son, and while Luke presumably chose to forgive him, we don't know what Leia or anyone else did in that regard. Both siblings suffered greatly, and it would be easy for them to hate Anakin...but the real devil in the story was Palpatine, and he's dead.

I know the difference between redemption and atonement -- my point was that others don't, thinking Anakin is redeemed or exonerated.

[klauswhereareyou]

I still want to know how Anakin became a force ghost?

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

I still want to know how Anakin became a force ghost?

George Lucas basically retconning the idea of the 1st trilogy that a force ghost is just what happens to any jedi

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

I still want to know how Anakin became a force ghost?

I think letting go and dying willingly in the final moments is the thing. That's the only sense I've made of it.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

I still want to know how Anakin became a force ghost?

Even though its absent from the films, Lucas has said more than once his intent was that Kenobi and Yoda helped manifest his consciousness as a Force Ghost after he died. The reason he appears younger is because, according to Lucas, Anakin's true self perished when he turned to darkness. Defeating Palpatine to save Luke restored that part of him, so his appearance in the Force reflects it.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by wormraper

George Lucas basically retconning the idea of the 1st trilogy that a force ghost is just what happens to any jedi

Which is what I originally thought, until the prequels rolled around and Yoda says something about Qui-Gon finding a way to communicate from beyond. Which then made me think that somehow a Jedi must will himself to become a ghost before death maybe????? I don't know Obi-Wan just disappears, Yoda disappears, Qui-Gon and Anakin are barbecued.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Cook

Lucas himself pitched an ending like that, and Kasdan wanted to do it.

I have to believe that was suggested in jest and Kasdan claiming he wanted to do that would be in mock humor.

Luke turning to the dark side because of anger when he was fighting Vader and/or the Emperor because he lost control would have made some sense. Luke turning to the dark side after removing Vader's mask would have made no sense.

But it would have been a hell of a setup for Episode VII.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

Which is what I originally thought, until the prequels rolled around and Yoda says something about Qui-Gon finding a way to communicate from beyond. Which then made me think that somehow a Jedi must will himself to become a ghost before death maybe????? I don't know Obi-Wan just disappears, Yoda disappears, Qui-Gon and Anakin are barbecued.

Its not a matter of willing something to happen, but a form of spiritual training which must be taught by another. We don't know who in the afterlife taught it to Qui-Gon, but Yoda learned it from him, and in turn trained Obi-Wan through meditation. Anakin was never taught it in life, but as in my earlier post, Lucas said Obi-Wan and Yoda helped him after death.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

You're confusing redemption with atonement. The first is born from personal forgiveness in the eyes of the wrong, while the latter is the attempt for reconciliation by the evildoer. Anakin did what he could do save his son, and while Luke presumably chose to forgive him, we don't know what Leia or anyone else did in that regard. Both siblings suffered greatly, and it would be easy for them to hate Anakin...but the real devil in the story was Palpatine, and he's dead.

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

I know the difference between redemption and atonement -- my point was that others don't, thinking Anakin is redeemed or exonerated.

Both good points. And since no one alive knows the story of Anakin, IMO, there's no reason to forgive him and I also felt that because of his evil acts (at least partially responsible for the death of millions), he could not be redeemed any more than a Hilter or Stalin could be redeemed.

I was hoping that Episode VII would have dealt at least in part, with Luke and Leia's long-term guilt about Vader, similar to what the children and grandchildren of Nazis have had to confront. Some believe in their father's mission, some are in denial and some live with the guilt that their father was evil.

As I've written before, I had wanted the reason Luke is in hiding in Episode VII is because it's discovered by the general populace and governments that he was the offspring of Vader and he's accused of being a traitor and spy. Maybe Leia as well.

[Ryan0503]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

Which is what I originally thought, until the prequels rolled around and Yoda says something about Qui-Gon finding a way to communicate from beyond. Which then made me think that somehow a Jedi must will himself to become a ghost before death maybe????? I don't know Obi-Wan just disappears, Yoda disappears, Qui-Gon and Anakin are barbecued.

In the Novelization it was only the armor that Luke BBQed

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Its not a matter of willing something to happen, but a form of spiritual training which must be taught by another. We don't know who in the afterlife taught it to Qui-Gon, but Yoda learned it from him, and in turn trained Obi-Wan through meditation. Anakin was never taught it in life, but as in my earlier post, Lucas said Obi-Wan and Yoda helped him after death.

I just assumed that Anakin being so powerful in the force was the reason he was able to do it without any training.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

Which is what I originally thought, until the prequels rolled around and Yoda says something about Qui-Gon finding a way to communicate from beyond. Which then made me think that somehow a Jedi must will himself to become a ghost before death maybe????? I don't know Obi-Wan just disappears, Yoda disappears, Qui-Gon and Anakin are barbecued.

that's what I'm saying the prequels just retconned the idea that a force ghost is what happens after you die and turned it into a big mumbo jumbo. same with the crappy midichlorians..the force is basically a high white blood cell count

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by wormraper

that's what I'm saying the prequels just retconned the idea that a force ghost is what happens after you die and turned it into a big mumbo jumbo. same with the crappy midichlorians..the force is basically a high white blood cell count

But that makes the force a bit more scientifically based, which I happen to like. If not, it means it's a bunch of supernatural mumbo-jumbo. I know that most fanboys hated the concept of the midichlorians, but I had never had a big problem with it (except for that "concert" in which it looked like a bunch of ***** swimming in a tank set to music). My only problem with the concept is that the Jedi knew that Anakin's numbers were off the charts, but that raised no bells with them that he might be a danger because of it.

But they still never explained, especially if Plagueis or the Emperor is Anakin's father, how he was conceived. And Shmi seemed awfully passive about the fact that she had a virgin birth, although I suppose when she said, "there was no father", she could have meant that there was no father who stuck around.

One thing not addressed unless it was addressed in the EU is the name Skywalker and how Shmi's father had that name and if he was some space honcho how she wound up a slave.

Edit: I can't believe the anti-vulgarity software changed the word I typed to ****, but you should be able to figure it out. It was not a vulgar term - it's a medically proper name (although shortened) for what I was referring to, but I think you'll understand that i was referring to fluid for making offspring.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

But that makes the force a bit more scientifically based, which I happen to like. If not, it means it's a bunch of supernatural mumbo-jumbo. I know that most fanboys hated the concept of the midichlorians, but I had never had a big problem with it (except for that "concert" in which it looked like a bunch of ***** swimming in a tank set to music). My only problem with the concept is that the Jedi knew that Anakin's numbers were off the charts, but that raised no bells with them that he might be a danger because of it.

But they still never explained, especially if Plagueis or the Emperor is Anakin's father, how he was conceived. And Shmi seemed awfully passive about the fact that she had a virgin birth, although I suppose when she said, "there was no father", she could have meant that there was no father who stuck around.

One thing not addressed unless it was addressed in the EU is the name Skywalker and how Shmi's father had that name and if he was some space honcho how she wound up a slave.

I hated it (along with most others) because most of us view Star Wars as space oriented fantasy. that "supernatural" stuff is what MADE it back then.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

But that makes the force a bit more scientifically based, which I happen to like. If not, it means it's a bunch of supernatural mumbo-jumbo.

Not necessarily. There can be a lot of (very interesting) middle ground between knowing the exact nuts and bolts of how something works and 'supernatural mumbo-jumbo'.

We knew from the PT that force ability or affinity was at least to some degree inheritable. We knew that force affinity could 'run in the family' and that was enough, wasn't it?

For my money a big part of the appeal of the force was its mystery. We didn't know if it was a strictly physical phenomenon or if it was mystical or a little bit of both.

There was no reason to 'fix' that let alone turn it into something you could detect with a simple blood test.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by wormraper

I hated it (along with most others) because most of us view Star Wars as space oriented fantasy. that "supernatural" stuff is what MADE it back then.

Yup, there's room for a little magic in a good adventure story.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

I'll never get why people think Vader was "exonerated" or "redeemed" in Return of the Jedi. We see a Sith Lord turn back from the Dark Side and give up his life in the process. Return of the Jedi reminds me -- of all things -- The Black Hole. The evil in Reinhardt's soul is sent to Hell, the good is passed on to heaven. The good in Anakin returns and becomes a part of the Force, the evil dies with his body. Nothing about exoneration, redemption, etc., though the theme of forgiveness is there in Luke's faith that Anakin still has goodness in his soul.

Ah, I think that's the key word: Forgiveness. All of the complaining about Anakin's salvation forgets one simple fact: Luke himself forgives his father for what he'd done, so it's not like the Anakin "redeemers" are pulling this out of thin air. If Luke can bring himself to do it - and he MUST have known of the atrocities that his father had wrought - then I can too.

And Ernest, I like the bit about his soul being split off into good and bad, it reminds me of the famous quote from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones".

Originally Posted by octagon

Not necessarily. There can be a lot of (very interesting) middle ground between knowing the exact nuts and bolts of how something works and 'supernatural mumbo-jumbo'.

We knew from the PT that force ability or affinity was at least to some degree inheritable. We knew that force affinity could 'run in the family' and that was enough, wasn't it?

For my money a big part of the appeal of the force was its mystery. We didn't know if it was a strictly physical phenomenon or if it was mystical or a little bit of both.

There was no reason to 'fix' that let alone turn it into something you could detect with a simple blood test.

That's the great thing about Clone Wars S6, it finally makes that distinction between the Living Force (midis and whatnot) and the Cosmic Force (force ghosts etc) and actually restores some of that mystical juju. Because Lucas didn't have time to explore this fully (or at all ) in the prequels, many people felt slighted because it seemed to boil the Force down into a simple blood test, and I can see where y'all are coming from.

But I personally think that the midis still jive with what Obi-Wan said about the Force being "an energy field created by all living things", i.e. there must be a reason why artificial creatures can't use it and people can, and the midis are that facilitator. And Clone Wars' insights into the Cosmic Force with Yoda at the forefront then ties in to what he tells Luke in Empire about unlearning what he has learned, that the Force is more than this "crude matter"; Yoda knows this because he has experienced it for himself.

[aiman04]

David Fincher discusses meeting Disney about Star Wars: Episode VII

Exclusive: “I talked to Kathy Kennedy about it”

In issue 225 of Total Film magazine, David Fincher tells us exclusively about considering the director's chair on Star Wars: Episode VII.

Inside the issue - which is available for just £1.99 on your iPad - Fincher talks us through his career for The Total Film Interview, including new film Gone Girl, and reveals that he spoke with Star Wars producer Kathy Kennedy about Episode VII.

"I talked to Kathy about it, but I think that it's a different thing from... I don't know what Disney-Lucasfilm will be like," he says of the studio merger that resulted in a new batch of Star Wars films being greenlit.

"It's tricky," he adds. "My favourite is The Empire Strikes Back. If I said, 'I want to do something more like that,' then I'm sure the people paying for it would be like, 'No! You can't do that! We want it like the other one with all the creatures!'

"I always thought of Star Wars as the story of two slaves [C-3PO and R2-D2] who go from owner to owner, witnessing their masters' folly, the ultimate folly of man... I thought it was an interesting idea in the first two, but it's kind of gone by Return Of The Jedi."

Gone Girl opens in the UK on 3 October.

For more from Fincher, pick up the brand new issue of Total Film, which is out now. Headed up by our monstrous Winter Preview, it includes an exclusive look at Daniel Radcliffe's dark fantasy Horns, Fury,The Judge,Horrible Bosses 2 and many more exciting new movies.

http://m.totalfilm.com/news/david-fi...rs-episode-vii

[Kryptonic]

I love Fincher, but wow are is sensibilities wrong for Star Wars, at least a film that's a part of the main Saga. I could see him doing a film about the bounty hunters or something a little darker.

[Guydowood]

Didn't Lucas once say the entire Star Wars saga was essentially seen through the eyes of the droids.....(C-3PO & R2-D2)

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Guydowood

Didn't Lucas once say the entire Star Wars saga was essentially seen through the eyes of the droids.....(C-3PO & R2-D2)

That holds true for most of A New Hope, but by Empire the scale overwhelmed that concept really. I kind of feel like it returned more in Return of the Jedi since 3PO and R2 have a little more to do in that film and are more integral right from the start in Jabba's Palace.