Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[coolkev1701]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

GEORGE LUCAS couldn't be bothered to read those books, and he ignored them whenever it pleased him. If the EU was canon, then the fight between Luke and Vader in Empire Strikes Back makes no sense, because Luke cut his arm off and kicked him down into a deep pit in Shadow of the Mind's Eye. Chewie's dead. Boba Fett's alive, Owen Lars is Ben Kenobi's brother, and clones of Palpatine and Luke are mucking about (while Luke prime turns to the Dark Side to see what it's like)...this stuff isn't "the basic history", it's a person sitting at a desk staring at a calendar with a deliverable date, thinking, "Guess I better get cracking on this thing and see what stuff I can make up."

Yeah, the story's in the books are so ridiculous at times that it's like the books and the movies exist in totally different universes. I was totally on board with Disney throwing all that EU book crap out.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by coolkev1701

Yeah, the story's in the books are so ridiculous at times that it's like the books and the movies exist in totally different universes. I was totally on board with Disney Lucasfilm throwing all that EU book crap out.

Generally speaking, I don't care about things I don't care about, so it makes no difference to me anyway. Unfortunately people will get upset when things contradict themselves or get re-written, but shit ... the movies do enough of that anyway.

If I was into the EU my books or comic-books wouldn't be degraded in anyway, if they're good, they're still good. The movies never cared about them anyway.

[JamesBenjamin]

Originally Posted by Forever Knight

I like this term and will go by it from now on.

Thumbs up! Thanks to the Nerdist podcast, for bringing the term to my attention.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Ernest, it's like people think Lucasfilm simply doesn't exist any more, as we know full well from certain other running disputes.

[edit] And yet whenever people talk about the creative decisions behind the Marvel movies they almost always talk about 'Marvel this' or 'Marvel that', they never seem to default to talking about 'Disney this, Disney that' like they do with Star Wars, it's so strange. Disney didn't buy Star Wars, it bought Lucasfilm. Big difference.

Yes, Disney bought Lucasfilm, but I'm not sure what your point is. All that means is that they didn't only buy the Star Wars assets, they bought the company as a whole with all that implies - assets, debt, buildings, etc. That means they get all of Lucasfilm's assets, like Indiana Jones characters, etc.

But if you're implying that this means that Disney doesn't have input into the content of Star Wars because Lucasfilm as a company still exists, while they may currently be giving Lucasfilm some independence, I can assure you (having been an executive at three major media companies) that a) they are very involved and b) one flop and they'll be far more involved.

Disney does not just give $250 million+ to Lucasfilm and says, "go do what you want". They spent $4 billion to acquire Lucasfilm (half in stock) and they're going to see to it that they get that investment back as quickly as possible and then be able to declare substantial earnings that increases shareholder value. That's what it's all about. And that's why they're renovating the amusement parks to include more Star Wars attractions. Disney wants to be the largest film studio by far. And they're on the way, unless the public starts losing its appetite for comic book and sci-fi movies. If there should be such a cultural change, Disney will be in big trouble.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

GEORGE LUCAS couldn't be bothered to read those books, and he ignored them whenever it pleased him. If the EU was canon, then the fight between Luke and Vader in Empire Strikes Back makes no sense, because Luke cut his arm off and kicked him down into a deep pit in Shadow of the Mind's Eye. Chewie's dead. Boba Fett's alive, Owen Lars is Ben Kenobi's brother, and clones of Palpatine and Luke are mucking about (while Luke prime turns to the Dark Side to see what it's like)...this stuff isn't "the basic history", it's a person sitting at a desk staring at a calendar with a deliverable date, thinking, "Guess I better get cracking on this thing and see what stuff I can make up."

Also, according to the books originally, Boba Fett was a Journeyman Protector named Jaster Mareel from some other planet (I forget which) who was exiled for murder. He would also lose his shit over people breaking the laws of their government, so abhorred the Rebellion. It was very bizarre and didn't seem to fit the persona of Boba Fett in any other material, including other books with him in it.

They had a hell of a time retconning all that crap when Episode II came out. It's almost comical to read his backstory in the Star Wars Encyclopedia, where they attempt to cram the two together in this convoluted way.

So yeah, Lucas really didn't give a damn about any of that EU stuff.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Yeah, yeah, I know...Splinter of the Mind's Eye. For some strange reason, the iPad won't let me edit my posts sometimes, just won't recognize the edit button.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I get the same thing, I can't edit my post if it's at the very top of a page.

No such issues with my Surface Pro 3.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Doctor Jack

Why can't everyone just enjoy what they enjoy whether it's official canon or not? If it brings you joy, then who the hell cares if it is "official". If you want to consider fan fiction part of the universe, fine. It doesn't matter. But I guess then you won't be "real" Star Wars fans. But then again, who cares if you are considered a "real" fan or not? I guess only the people who consider themselves "real" fans. Can't infringe on their Star Wars superiority.

It isn't a matter of "superiority", it's a matter of what filmmakers have to use when creating their stories. If they had the EU as canon they would have their hands tied.


As a STAR TREK fan I'm familiar with this issue. Basically, if it's on screen from Paramount - it's canon. In print it's not. They can draw from the books, like Uhura or Sulu's first names. But the books and comics do not exists as far as the movie and TV universes. go.

[Det. Bullock]

Originally Posted by Forever Knight

You haven't heard of Dawn of the Jedi yet you seem to know everything of the EU based on those comments.

Plus nothing from the new canon has contradicted anything in the timeline of the EU...yet.



It boggles my mind how anyone can be a Star Wars fan and not even know the origins of the force, lightsabers, Jedi, Sith, etc. Do you guys think it just popped out of nowhere and BAM! Phantom Menace begins? lol

ROTFL

In the Thrawn trilogy alone there are a few contraddictions regarding the clones (clones go mad unless you use the Ysalamiri, the clone wars started because the clones went mad, etc.), there was also a novel in which Jedi of the late republic with family and children were mentioned, hell, part of the novel was about a primitive imperial superweapon made to destroy a colony made up mostly of Jedi family and their children and part of the backstory was about a Jedi and her lover trying to sabotage it and keep in mind that this explicitly takes place soon after old Palpy came to power, no contraddictions there.

[spiderfan1985]

Originally Posted by JamesBenjamin

Also I don't like the idea of there being "real" star wars fans or people who are "better" star wars fans because they've read or know the EU (or any other thing).

I consider myself a pretty big SW fan. EU wise, I've read Shadows of the Empire, its comic, and played the N64 game through. I've read the Thrawn trilogy. I started the X-wing series but couldn't get into it. I've owned 3 or 4 versions of the OT over the years, have the original ST on vinyl. I've also seen all the Animated stuff (from CW forward) So there's plenty I haven't read, but that doesn't make me "less" of a fan.

When I met my wife one of the things we clicked on right away was a love of Star Wars. Once we were about a year in I realized she wasn't as familiar with all the minor things as I was (I slaughtered her in SW Trivial Pursuit) but that doesn't mean she's less of a fan than me. There's also a guy at my office with an Admiral Ackbar figure on his desk. I can guarantee he's never read a SW book, but he's still a fan, same as you and me. I'd certainly never rip him for not knowing about a Dark Horse comic series from the 90s.

Have you seen Sideways? One can certainly enjoy a glass of decent wine without being a wine snob. Star Wars (or anything else) is the same way.

+1 I hate this too. I love Star Wars, but have never gotten big into the EU. I remember reading the Young Jedi Knights series back in the day and a couple of others, but that's about it for the EU for me.

[Geoff D]

I think Lucas made his feelings for the EU quite clear when he torpedoed the excellent Republic Commando books whilst making Clone Wars. They depict the Mandalorians as this noble warrior race (not unlike yer Klingons, I guess) but Lucas decided to depict them on-screen as this bunch of peaceniks with only a select few nutters still adhering to the old ways of the Mandalorian people. The writer couldn't even get to finish the series because the retcon was so drastic.

[wormraper]

80% of the EU was better than 99.9% of anything Lucas came up with for the PT

[Groot]

Originally Posted by wormraper

80% of the EU was better than 99.9% of anything Lucas came up with for the PT

I agree with this.

[Falaskan]

Anyone want to see time travel introduced into the saga (I feel like it's only a matter of time)?

[Gamma_Winstead]

Originally Posted by Falaskan

Anyone want to see time travel introduced into the saga (I feel like it's only a matter of time)?

Uh... No.

[Det. Bullock]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I think Lucas made his feelings for the EU quite clear when he torpedoed the excellent Republic Commando books whilst making Clone Wars. They depict the Mandalorians as this noble warrior race (not unlike yer Klingons, I guess) but Lucas decided to depict them on-screen as this bunch of peaceniks with only a select few nutters still adhering to the old ways of the Mandalorian people. The writer couldn't even get to finish the series because the retcon was so drastic.

Yep, and the author also seemingly hated the Jedi Knights for some reason from what I hear.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Yes, Disney bought Lucasfilm, but I'm not sure what your point is. All that means is that they didn't only buy the Star Wars assets, they bought the company as a whole with all that implies - assets, debt, buildings, etc. That means they get all of Lucasfilm's assets, like Indiana Jones characters, etc.

But if you're implying that this means that Disney doesn't have input into the content of Star Wars because Lucasfilm as a company still exists.

One of my oldest friends is a Vice President at Disney, and while his job is frustrating at times (veeps have to listen to all the complaining from those underneath and also those above), he also says he rolls his eyes at the stereotypes regarding the company, and how inaccurate and flat-out ignorant people can be with their assumptions. That company is all about delegation. Of course Disney has final say, but they're not big into micro-management (at least, under Iger). They hire people to do a job and they expect it to get done, and the attitude is they shouldn't *have* to micro-manage, and they get very pissed when they have to step in, especially with the creatives.

Disney does not just give $250 million+ to Lucasfilm and says, "go do what you want". They spent $4 billion to acquire Lucasfilm (half in stock) and they're going to see to it that they get that investment back as quickly as possible and then be able to declare substantial earnings that increases shareholder value. That's what it's all about. And that's why they're renovating the amusement parks to include more Star Wars attractions. Disney wants to be the largest film studio by far.

Iger came to power after Comcast tried to acquire Disney in a hostile take-over bid. To protect the company, they're growing so that no one can afford to pull that stunt again. But they're making acquisitions that make sense for the company and for what they do.

And they're on the way, unless the public starts losing its appetite for comic book and sci-fi movies. If there should be such a cultural change, Disney will be in big trouble.

The film division is one of many divisions, the film division has had bad years before and they adjusted (don't see Disney touching Mars again with a ten-foot pole). They're more concerned with people's changing habits regarding cable TV and cord-cutting than anything else right now. ESPN's base numbers are down accordingly and it hurt their stock price last month.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Falaskan

Anyone want to see time travel introduced into the saga (I feel like it's only a matter of time)?

Absolutely not. Time travel is a writer's crutch and it either never makes any sense or it makes one's head hurt.

They used it in the recent Star Trek reboot so they could indeed reboot the series, but it causes problems when the audience is already emotionally invested in the original. Now you're telling them that everything that came before, the story they invested so much time in, no longer exists. That pisses people off.

Having said that, it could be a way to reboot the entire PT and wipe it out as canon, although the ending would have to wind up pretty much in the same place in order for the OT to still make some sense. However, it should be a very long time before Disney/Lucasfilm runs out of ideas and stories to tell that they'd want to reboot the PT. And if they did want to reboot the PT, there are other ways to do it besides time travel: you could have Luke or his child or grandchild somehow discover that everything they thought they knew about Anakin was wrong (up until the start of the OT) and then re-tell the story, no time travel necessary, also remembering that we know Anakin's story, but Luke et al really doesn't.

Although it could be pretty funny to take a bunch of SW characters and temporarily send them to current day Earth. R2D2 and C3PO accidentally is sent here first in our 1975. The fall in the hands of a George Lucas and they tell him their story, which they can do because C3PO can magically understand any language. He makes Star Wars, et al. Other Star Wars characters follow them to get them back, but they come back to 20xx. They, of course, do not speak English and hilarity ensues as they interact with our society. And they manage to get back, but they lose all memory of earth in the process.

[DJMcNiff]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

One of my oldest friends is a Vice President at Disney, and while his job is frustrating at times (veeps have to listen to all the complaining from those underneath and also those above), he also says he rolls his eyes at the stereotypes regarding the company, and how inaccurate and flat-out ignorant people can be with their assumptions. That company is all about delegation. Of course Disney has final say, but they're not big into micro-management (at least, under Iger). They hire people to do a job and they expect it to get done, and the attitude is they shouldn't *have* to micro-manage, and they get very pissed when they have to step in, especially with the creatives.



Iger came to power after Comcast tried to acquire Disney in a hostile take-over bid. To protect the company, they're growing so that no one can afford to pull that stunt again. But they're making acquisitions that make sense for the company and for what they do.



The film division is one of many divisions, the film division has had bad years before and they adjusted (don't see Disney touching Mars again with a ten-foot pole). They're more concerned with people's changing habits regarding cable TV and cord-cutting than anything else right now. ESPN's base numbers are down accordingly and it hurt their stock price last month.

As an outsider looking in, that's been my impression of Disney under Iger. Under Eisner it seemed like the opposite was true, that management would try to micro-mange the creative aspects (imo that was one of the mistakes that eventually lead to WDAS (and Disney as a whole) losing their way for awhile).

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by DJMcNiff

As an outsider looking in, that's been my impression of Disney under Iger. Under Eisner it seemed like the opposite was true, that management would try to micro-mange the creative aspects (imo that was one of the mistakes that eventually lead to WDAS (and Disney as a whole) losing their way for awhile).

It got progressively worse, year by year.

[DJMcNiff]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

It got progressively worse, year by year.

That's the impression I've gotten from everything I heard and read about what lead to the downturn at Disney. Iger seems to be a case of the right person taking over at the right time.