HDR Discussion Thread

[Blu Cider]

Then select the SDR channel if you don't like how the TV tonemaps the HDR broadcast or if it's a crappy one. And hope that the broadcasters do a better job.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

Ultimately HDR will become common in live sports events and broadcasting. Given the wide variety of HDR capable sets what may look good on a high end set could look awful on a low end set. How should broadcasters and cable operators handle this? Should they aim at the lowest common denominator or is there another solution?

If they use HLG then it won't be a major problem, as the beauty of that system is that it's built around relative luminance where the target display interprets the final OOTF of the signal to best match the display device and its current settings, whereas absolute luminance PQ is built around a direct assumption that the target display will match the OOTF. If it doesn't match then that's where tone mapping comes into play and that's where the wicky wicky wild wild west of said mapping can make it look all kinds of ****ed up. Which is why HLG is being used for broadcast HDR.

I've said it before but the best looking version of the demo Montage on Spears & Munsil UHD Benchmark on my TV isn't the HDR10 or even the DV but the HLG version.

[gkolb]

I have held out as I will be a raving novice at this, but I’ll get the 2nd Edition as soon as it’s available.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

If they use HLG then it won't be a major problem,

signs have been pointing to the HLG way for a while, by someone’s who utilized both formats in the past for broadcast - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post17494553

And as a follow-up to this past heads-up from Feb.– https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post17351543

It should get easier for content providers predisposed to using HLG as the new guidelines were just recently published - https://tech.ebu.ch/publications/tech3373?

P.S.
As an aside to stalwart PQ providers, a version of the tech paper is also planned for HDR10 too……eventually.

[Lee A Stewart]

Are Quantum Nano Emitting Diodes (QNEDs) the Next Big Thing?

As the display industry widely awaits the launch of QD-OLEDs by Samsung in 2021, an obvious question in everyone’s minds is - what’s next? What does the display roadmap look like in the premium TV segment? Having a blue OLED as the backlight can limit the ultimate brightness, while microLEDs continue to be very expensive to manufacture and self-emissive Cd-free EL-QDs may not be ready for mass production for some time. Well, the answer might very well be ‘QNED’- Quantum Nano Emitting Diode display technology.

https://displaydaily.com/article/dis...next-big-thing

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I've said it before but the best looking version of the demo Montage on Spears & Munsil UHD Benchmark on my TV isn't the HDR10 or even the DV but the HLG version.

Interesting, BTW, what player did you use?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Interesting, BTW, what player did you use?

The OPPO, not that it really matters as the HLG version of the Montage is encoded to disc as SDR 2020 anyway, I have to manually enable HLG on the TV.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

If they use HLG then it won't be a major problem, as the beauty of that system is that it's built around relative luminance where the target display interprets the final OOTF of the signal to best match the display device and its current settings, whereas absolute luminance PQ is built around a direct assumption that the target display will match the OOTF. If it doesn't match then that's where tone mapping comes into play and that's where the wicky wicky wild wild west of said mapping can make it look all kinds of ****ed up. Which is why HLG is being used for broadcast HDR.

I've said it before but the best looking version of the demo Montage on Spears & Munsil UHD Benchmark on my TV isn't the HDR10 or even the DV but the HLG version.

Just goes to show you how differently we all experience HDR.

For me, whenever I've seen the same video in both HLG and HDR10/DV, I've always much preferred the HDR10/DV.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

Just goes to show you how differently we all experience HDR.

For me, whenever I've seen the same video in both HLG and HDR10/DV, I've always much preferred the HDR10/DV.

Have you seen the Montage that I'm talking about though? I'm not throwing PQ-based HDR under the bus as the ZD9 has been a worthy exponent, but it's not perfect and when it comes to the extremely bright and colourful content that Stacey has put into the Montage - quite deliberately, so as to make HDR 'break' if the TV can't handle it - then my 'standard' HDR viewing mode which is good for at least 1000 nits of information blows out a ton of highlights and colour saturation. Switch to DV and the low latency mode used on Sony TVs can't cope, it's got some sort of issue with ignoring metadata of a certain kind (Stacey can explain more) and so while it's fine up to about 4000 nits of information the rest is blown out to balls, chapter 2 of the montage with the horsies in the snow (which is at least 5000 nits IIRC) is badly clipped. But the HLG? Man, it just smiles and aks for more.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Have you seen the Montage that I'm talking about though? I'm not throwing PQ-based HDR under the bus as the ZD9 has been a worthy exponent, but it's not perfect and when it comes to the extremely bright and colourful content that Stacey has put into the Montage - quite deliberately, so as to make HDR 'break' if the TV can't handle it - then my 'standard' HDR viewing mode which is good for at least 1000 nits of information blows out a ton of highlights and colour saturation. Switch to DV and the low latency mode used on Sony TVs can't cope, it's got some sort of issue with ignoring metadata of a certain kind (Stacey can explain more) and so while it's fine up to about 4000 nits of information the rest is blown out to balls, chapter 2 of the montage with the horsies in the snow (which is at least 5000 nits IIRC) is badly clipped. But the HLG? Man, it just smiles and aks for more.

Its that 14 bit IP.

LL DV uses far less processing for DV dynamic tone mapping, atleast it seems.

[Penton-Man]

Last year, the IRT carried out subjective testing with regards to the value of individual UHD parameters, namely, spatial resolution, HDR, WCG and HFR.

The upcoming lecture scheduled for April 15th reports on the procedure and the results of that investigation - https://www.irt.de/de/aktuell/news/v...b3e831f6d2a69b

Meanwhile, a sneak peek for those with access - https://tech.ebu.ch/publications/uhd...-driesnack-irt

[Penton-Man]

Due to some osteoarthritis having developed in my left little finger secondary to a dislocation from an old bike injury ( https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...er#post7374115 ), I’ve been admittedly non-compliant over the years in using an upper case K; whereas, I think everything thing else I posted in the past jives with the important take-aways….. https://lab.irt.de/uhd-hdr-4k-or-8k-whats-correct/

On the positive dominant hand, unless I've typed on a smartphone, I think it’s safe to say we’ve been pioneering fans as to upper case B.T.2100 for quite a while, e.g. - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...0#post17220019

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Its that 14 bit IP.

LL DV uses far less processing for DV dynamic tone mapping, atleast it seems.

14-bit processing has nada to do with it. It's not really Sony's problem though, which is why I called it the mode used by Sony TVs, it's a problem with the low latency profile in general and **** knows if Dolby will ever properly tune it.

It still uses a load of processing though, it just does it upstream in the player rather than the TV which is why people have been able to get it running on their projektors once they've tricked the EDID, all the mapping is happening inside the 12-bit PQ-encoded 'container' that's being sent to the display.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

14-bit processing has nada to do with it. It's not really Sony's problem though, which is why I called it the mode used by Sony TVs, it's a problem with the low latency profile in general and **** knows if Dolby will ever properly tune it.

It still uses a load of processing though, it just does it upstream in the player rather than the TV which is why people have been able to get it running on their projektors once they've tricked the EDID, all the mapping is happening inside the 12-bit PQ-encoded 'container' that's being sent to the display.

The 14 bit referred to the HLG, not LL DV.

But, thanks for the breakdown. You just reminded me about the PDF file I downloaded about 12 bit 10,000 nit PQ using local dimming using low voltage

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Due to some osteoarthritis having developed in my left little finger secondary to a dislocation from an old bike injury ( https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...er#post7374115 ), I’ve been admittedly non-compliant over the years in using an upper case K; whereas, I think everything thing else I posted in the past jives with the important take-aways….. https://lab.irt.de/uhd-hdr-4k-or-8k-whats-correct/

That's a great page and I love that Venn diagram! Thanks for posting it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

The 14 bit referred to the HLG, not LL DV.

But, thanks for the breakdown. You just reminded me about the PDF file I downloaded about 12 bit 10,000 nit PQ using local dimming using low voltage

Even so, in DV test patterns the ZD9 can resolve all the way to 10k nits so it's not that the Sony's own internal gubbins is doing something above and beyond with the HLG in this instance, it's that the LLDV itself has issues with metadata where the automated L1 stuff is fine but it seems to struggle with the manual trim passes.

So in that respect I wonder if it is a processing problem after all, it's not like the players aren't still having to do a lot of crunching (especially with FEL discs) but it's almost like a cap on the upper limit of the mapping that LLDV can do. Maybe not deliberately, it's that they just didn't bother putting a whole lot of testing into it?

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Even so, in DV test patterns the ZD9 can resolve all the way to 10k nits so it's not that the Sony's own internal gubbins is doing something above and beyond with the HLG in this instance, it's that the LLDV itself has issues with metadata where the automated L1 stuff is fine but it seems to struggle with the manual trim passes.

So in that respect I wonder if it is a processing problem after all, it's not like the players aren't still having to do a lot of crunching (especially with FEL discs) but it's almost like a cap on the upper limit of the mapping that LLDV can do. Maybe not deliberately, it's that they just didn't bother putting a whole lot of testing into it?

LLDV may require some bit of collaboration between Sony and Dolby, and hopefully if true any result can be updated through firmware.

I was thinking the 14 bit processing would be a leg up, considering you need 16 bit gamma to match 12 bit PQ. HLG being relative.

I find it odd, "bits" has not become a marketing tool. After 4 years with HDR being in the marketplace, 16 bit processing should be the norm or atleast be represented in the high end sector.

[Penton-Man]

From the Director, the following described timeline in today’s posted interview also applies to the HDR finish too –
https://comicbook.com/movies/2020/04...seph-kosinski/

[Penton-Man]

Coming to Netflix in 2 weeks –

Extraction | Official Trailer | Netflix - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

^ Although, as of this moment, not credited on imdb - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8936646...=tt_cl_sm#cast
Stephen Nakamura actually contributed quite a bit to the color finishing of Extraction.