3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[Rustmonsteru]

Originally Posted by mr2bob

XBR5 has a 18 month warranty vs 12 and a black bezel around the screen. You can get different color bezels for the XBR4. Other then that internally they are the same.

Thanks. I figured the difference was mainly cosmetic I just wanted to be sure.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by gand41f

Well, it doesn't have cable card and QAM tuner so what's the point of an A/V RF switch? Without a QAM tuner, you'll need an external cable box anyway, and that will feed you HDMI or DVI or component. Am I missing something?

enjoy
gandalf

The Sony and Pioneer displays both have a one way QAM tuner for unencrypted programming. The Pioneer Kuro Plasma’s on the list also have a Cable Card slot that allows one to use the internal QAM tuner to subscribe to Digital HDTV channels like HBO and Showtime without the need of a cable box. The cable card feature is a minor issue since most people will want a TWO WAY cable box that supports Video on demand. One day soon manufactories should start placing two way QAM tuners into displays to turn the sets into full functional Digital HDTV cable boxes. So far only the new $299 TIVO box has a two way QAM tuner that turns the TIVO into a cable box that supports interactive services like VOD when a two way cable card is used.
Now when Sony removed the built in RF switch it must have only cut $30 in the cost of the display. This is a feature that would have been nice to have. The old Sony’s you could switch between unencrypted in the clear QAM channels on cable and ATSC channels with a outdoor antenna. In Sony’s defense most people will be using a external satellite or cable box and having only one RF input for a outdoor antenna will be fine. In the future on higher end displays that include TV tuners I would like to see two way QAM tuners with cable card and a built in RF switch become a standard feature. In the future both MPEG-4 and MPEG-2 will need to be built into the QAM tuner instead of only MPEG-2.

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

The Sony and Pioneer displays both have a one way QAM tuner for unencrypted programming. The Pioneer Kuro Plasma’s on the list also have a Cable Card slot that allows one to use the internal QAM tuner to subscribe to Digital HDTV channels like HBO and Showtime without the need of a cable box. The cable card feature is a minor issue since most people will want a TWO WAY cable box that supports Video on demand. One day soon manufactories should start placing two way QAM tuners into displays to turn the sets into full functional Digital HDTV cable boxes. So far only the new $299 TIVO box has a two way QAM tuner that turns the TIVO into a cable box that supports interactive services like VOD when a two way cable card is used.
Now when Sony removed the built in RF switch it must have only cut $30 in the cost of the display. This is a feature that would have been nice to have. The old Sony’s you could switch between unencrypted in the clear QAM channels on cable and ATSC channels with a outdoor antenna. In Sony’s defense most people will be using a external satellite or cable box and having only one RF input for a outdoor antenna will be fine. In the future on higher end displays that include TV tuners I would like to see two way QAM tuners with cable card and a built in RF switch become a standard feature. In the future both MPEG-4 and MPEG-2 will need to be built into the QAM tuner instead of only MPEG-2.

Oh, they do have a QAM tuner. Sorry, my mistake, I assumed they don't since Sony's product spec page only listed ATSC/NTSC in the tuner section.

Yes, in that case they should have put in the RF switch, I suspect it's actually much less than $30. Unfortunately you and I are in a very small minority, people are either going to use cable only (majority) or antenna only (minority). Actually, I have only antenna at the moment (because my local cable company doesn't have high definition ).

enjoy
gandalf

[joevfx]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Thanks for the info from the Sony insider gand41f. Sometimes finding information on displays can be very difficult. I also think the Sony’s on the list are hear to stay. We have verification form the Ultimate AV magazine, Perfect Vision magazine, and now a Sony insider that the sets do a correct 5:5 pulldown (When motion Enhancer is turned off). The Sony’s are the very first display on the market that does a 5:5 pulldown (120HZ). In theory most of the time the higher the multiplies of the original frame the less judder will be experienced. I would like to see Plasma screens have a 120HZ refresh rate one day. Perhaps in a few years or several years down the road there will be 240HZ displays that do a 10:10 pulldown. Of course many 48HZ displays do an excellent job at reducing the judder. It would be interesting for someone to do a professional review comparing a 48HZ display to a 120HZ to see which does a better job at judder reduction. In theory most of the time the 120HZ should be better. When it comes to flat panels I prefer the quality of the Pioneer Plasma’s with great black levels and excellent color depth. 35mm and 70mm film is refreshed at 48HZ and 72HZ so as long as one has a display that does 48HZ or 72HZ they will match the quality of film. In theory 96HZ and 120HZ on a high-end front projector would reduce the judder even more then what is shown in the average movie theater.

2 questions.

1. im assuming this 120hz at 5:5 is the same for the A3000 sxrd series also, correct? sicne the SXRD and the xbr LCDs have the same motion flow technology.

2. when the insider says it takes 60i and converts it to 24p, does he mean that the cinemotion ( reverse 3:2 pulldown) converter needs to be on? there are two modes for cinemotion, auto 1 and auto 2. no one seems to know the best setting for HD or 24p stuff. from what i know, i thought cinemotion only worked on 480i signals, and could be turned off for HD content. so is the fact the the TV is 120hz good enough for the tv to convert 60i to 24 and not need cinemotion 3:2 pulldown on?

thanks in advance

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by joevfx

2 questions.

1. im assuming this 120hz at 5:5 is the same for the A3000 sxrd series also, correct? sicne the SXRD and the xbr LCDs have the same motion flow technology.

2. when the insider says it takes 60i and converts it to 24p, does he mean that the cinemotion ( reverse 3:2 pulldown) converter needs to be on? there are two modes for cinemotion, auto 1 and auto 2. no one seems to know the best setting for HD or 24p stuff. from what i know, i thought cinemotion only worked on 480i signals, and could be turned off for HD content. so is the fact the the TV is 120hz good enough for the tv to convert 60i to 24 and not need cinemotion 3:2 pulldown on?

thanks in advance

In answer to your first question as far as my understanding the new native 120HZ SXRD rear projectors that accept a 1080P/24 input use the same exact technology as the LCD when doing a 5:5. These new Sony SXRD’s have not had a professional review yet. If for some reason they do not do a 5:5 pulldown correctly they will be removed from the list.

I do not own the new Sony’s and I have not had the opportunity to fully test them. Reading the manual and the following quote, my understanding on the Sony’s is that they only do a Cinemotion reverse 3:2 pulldown on 480I content. The Sony manual does not describe in detail the difference between auto 1 and auto 2 accept they mention that auto 2 is closer to the original film movement. Now when watching 1080P/24 content from a HDTV BLU-RAY player or HD-DVD player motion enhancer needs to be off to properly do a 5:5 at multiplies of the original frame.
Quote regarding Cinemotion
“But the Sony's deinterlacing and scaling performance, with a 480i input, was disappointing. It performed poorly on many of the difficult video processing torture tests on the HQV Benchmark DVD (with the set's CineMotion set to either Auto1 or Auto2). But it did pass the Coliseum flyover test in chapter 12 of Gladiator. Overall, however, the video processing in Sony's own VPL-AW15 LCD projector, reviewed here recently, performed far better. So do many upconverting DVD players.
Sony's processing performed much better, however, when converting 1080i sources to the set's 1080p resolution. It still did not recognize and deal with 3/2 pulldown, but it did perform the deinterlacing properly and only rarely showed video processing artifacts with a 1080i or 720p source. And these were minor and fleeting.”
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/907sonyxbr4/index2.html

[joevfx]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

In answer to your first question as far as my understanding the new native 120HZ SXRD rear projectors that accept a 1080P/24 input use the same exact technology as the LCD when doing a 5:5. These new Sony SXRD’s have not had a professional review yet. If for some reason they do not do a 5:5 pulldown correctly they will be removed from the list.

I do not own the new Sony’s and I have not had the opportunity to fully test them. Reading the manual and the following quote, my understanding on the Sony’s is that they only do a Cinemotion reverse 3:2 pulldown on 480I content. The Sony manual does not describe in detail the difference between auto 1 and auto 2 accept they mention that auto 2 is closer to the original film movement. Now when watching 1080P/24 content from a HDTV BLU-RAY player or HD-DVD player motion enhancer needs to be off to properly do a 5:5 at multiplies of the original frame.
Quote regarding Cinemotion
“But the Sony's deinterlacing and scaling performance, with a 480i input, was disappointing. It performed poorly on many of the difficult video processing torture tests on the HQV Benchmark DVD (with the set's CineMotion set to either Auto1 or Auto2). But it did pass the Coliseum flyover test in chapter 12 of Gladiator. Overall, however, the video processing in Sony's own VPL-AW15 LCD projector, reviewed here recently, performed far better. So do many upconverting DVD players.
Sony's processing performed much better, however, when converting 1080i sources to the set's 1080p resolution. It still did not recognize and deal with 3/2 pulldown, but it did perform the deinterlacing properly and only rarely showed video processing artifacts with a 1080i or 720p source. And these were minor and fleeting.”
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/907sonyxbr4/index2.html

yeah i have read that before. the de interlacing though is done by DRC not cinemotion. cinemotion only deals with 3:2 pulldown. does 60i content have a pulldown in it or is it only interlaced?

its annoying that there has not been a profressinal review of the A3000 yet, especially sicne sonys SXRds are the most populare rear projections out there.
.
has anyone spoken oin detail about the motion naturalizer in the Sony tvs? this is suppossed to do black frame insertion to mae 24p signals look more "movie like"

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by joevfx

yeah i have read that before. the de interlacing though is done by DRC not cinemotion. cinemotion only deals with 3:2 pulldown. does 60i content have a pulldown in it or is it only interlaced?

its annoying that there has not been a profressinal review of the A3000 yet, especially sicne sonys SXRds are the most populare rear projections out there.
.
has anyone spoken oin detail about the motion naturalizer in the Sony tvs? this is suppossed to do black frame insertion to mae 24p signals look more "movie like"

Technically everything we watch accept 1080P/24 HDTV discs has a 3:2 pulldown process. All the 480I DVD’s taken from the master 1080P/24 source or 4K source goes threw a 3:2 pulldown process. Also all the TV programs mastered at 1080P/24 when broadcasted go threw a 3:2 pulldown process.
Yes the Sony SXRD have a real nice picture quality that is better then LCD and most Plasma’s. Front Projectors are a little better then the rear projector SXRD’s.
When a review of the $15,000 Sony VPL-VW200 Front projector is done most likely someone will mention the black frame insertion process.

[joevfx]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Technically everything we watch accept 1080P/24 HDTV discs has a 3:2 pulldown process. All the 480I DVD’s taken from the master 1080P/24 source or 4K source goes threw a 3:2 pulldown process. Also all the TV programs mastered at 1080P/24 when broadcasted go threw a 3:2 pulldown process.
Yes the Sony SXRD have a real nice picture quality that is better then LCD and most Plasma’s. Front Projectors are a little better then the rear projector SXRD’s.
When a review of the $15,000 Sony VPL-VW200 Front projector is done most likely someone will mention the black frame insertion process.

arent there progessive dvds though that are on the disc at 24?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by joevfx

arent there progessive dvds though that are on the disc at 24?

All DVD’s are encoded at 480I. There are some good DVD players that output 480P that do a nice job of converting a 480I DVD to 480P/30 or 480P/60. Toshiba has HD-DVD players that will convert a 480I DVD to 480P/24 and then will upconvert the DVD to 1080P/24. Currently all BLU-RAY players upconvert the 480I DVD to 1080P/60. Of course as we all know true high definition is better then upconverting. Some times leaving the DVD at 480I is better quality if the up converting produces a lot of artifacts in the picture.

[DavePS3]

If anyone expects to lose film judder by using 24... they're sadly mistaken. Film is shot at 24fps and you can't see a film in the theater without seeing judder on horizontal or vertical pans. There's only so much information you can pass smoothly at 24 and once the camera or movement in front of the camera surpasses that, judder occurs. Video tape is 30fps and when video is used to shoot with, movement is MUCH smoother... until you transfer that video to film. Doing that as well as transferring film onto video gets you worse judder and that, is the process known as 3:2 or 2:3 pulldown. In any event, 24fps is not smooth. Go see a movie in the theater and you'll see what I'm talking about. 24fps is highly overrated and is being over-marketed.

[U4K61]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

All DVD?s are encoded at 480I. There are some good DVD players that output 480P that do a nice job of converting a 480I DVD to 480P/30 or 480P/60. Toshiba has HD-DVD players that will convert a 480I DVD to 480P/24 and then will upconvert the DVD to 1080P/24. Currently all BLU-RAY players upconvert the 480I DVD to 1080P/60. Of course as we all know true high definition is better then upconverting.

1080p DVD upconversion is overrated. You can't add picture information that is not there. To fill a 1080p screen, scaling must done by the TV or the player. It's just a matter which does a better job. Also, PQ will be degraded if you scale 480p to 1080i/p for a 720p display device that now has to downconvert it to 720p.

I would love to see DVD upconverted to 960p (480x2) windowboxed to 1080p, but people do not like black bars in their picture.
See the Upscale Crises

[geoperknis]

Many people are throwing the word "judder" around as if it were a technical term. I cannot find a definition on the web that is that specific. Recently in these posts the word "judder" was used when, in fact, the author probably meant "flicker".

Movies, when shown at 24fps (or less) have a noticable flickering effect (excuse me if I am not entirely technical in my usage). Watch an old silent film at 16fps and this is very obvious. Flashes of light literally jump off the screen in an annoying way. This is why films became to be known as "flics". As in, "That hollywood actor is sure great. What is his next flic?"

Judder, on the other hand, I believe is intended to be used as a way of describing the motion artifact present when interlaced 30i or 60i material is de-interlaced to 30p or 60p. The motion defects are a result of poor reverse telecine (2:3 to 3:2) processing.

Given a perfect telecine pull-up (3:2) recording, and a perfect reverse-telecine playback (3:2) pull-down, there would be no judder. Likewise, if the recording does not use interlacing and (3:2) pull-up then the playback won't need de-interlacing and (3:2) pull-down and will have no judder. An example of this is recordings made at 24fps and played back at 24fps. A perfectionist may argue that there never will be a "perfect" telecine pull-up (3:2) recording or "perfect" reverse-telecine pull-down (3:2); and the only way to be absolutely certain you have a true image is to record and play at 24fps, reproducing the original film exactly as the negative was exposed, thus no judder. Projecting at 24fps may have some flicker, but no judder. If you want to reduce flicker, try 48fps, 72fps, 96fps, 120fps or 144fps (the current digital theater standard).

I think all of this is kind of a moot point for future films. Yes, we have a century of films in the can all shot at 24fps. But beginning in the last decade, films have been transferred to digital, processed for special effects, and re-transferred back to 24fps film. In the digital domain all sorts of processing is being done and there is no longer any sense of what the actual original director shot on his 24fps analog negative. So doing some pull-up and pull-down later is hardly worth getting worked up about. As long as the reverse telecine chips are doing a good job! That is the domain of engineers and professional equipment reviewers ("golden eyes"). We poor saps in the consumer world only can stand in an isle at Best Buy and hope the screen we're looking at is half-ass adjusted right and the content being presented is reasonably complex so we get a sense of the televisions playback limitations!

Someone correct me if I am wrong (in any of the above). Thank you.

[mycroft]

Originally Posted by geoperknis

Many people are throwing the word "judder" around as if it were a technical term. I cannot find a definition on the web that is that specific. Recently in these posts the word "judder" was used when, in fact, the author probably meant "flicker".

Movies, when shown at 24fps (or less) have a noticable flickering effect (excuse me if I am not entirely technical in my usage). Watch an old silent film at 16fps and this is very obvious. Flashes of light literally jump off the screen in an annoying way. This is why films became to be known as "flics". As in, "That hollywood actor is sure great. What is his next flic?"

Judder, on the other hand, I believe is intended to be used as a way of describing the motion artifact present when interlaced 30i or 60i material is de-interlaced to 30p or 60p. The motion defects are a result of poor reverse telecine (2:3 to 3:2) processing.

Given a perfect telecine pull-up (3:2) recording, and a perfect reverse-telecine playback (3:2) pull-down, there would be no judder. Likewise, if the recording does not use interlacing and (3:2) pull-up then the playback won't need de-interlacing and (3:2) pull-down and will have no judder. An example of this is recordings made at 24fps and played back at 24fps. A perfectionist may argue that there never will be a "perfect" telecine pull-up (3:2) recording or "perfect" reverse-telecine pull-down (3:2); and the only way to be absolutely certain you have a true image is to record and play at 24fps, reproducing the original film exactly as the negative was exposed, thus no judder. Projecting at 24fps may have some flicker, but no judder. If you want to reduce flicker, try 48fps, 72fps, 96fps, 120fps or 144fps (the current digital theater standard).

I think all of this is kind of a moot point for future films. Yes, we have a century of films in the can all shot at 24fps. But beginning in the last decade, films have been transferred to digital, processed for special effects, and re-transferred back to 24fps film. In the digital domain all sorts of processing is being done and there is no longer any sense of what the actual original director shot on his 24fps analog negative. So doing some pull-up and pull-down later is hardly worth getting worked up about. As long as the reverse telecine chips are doing a good job! That is the domain of engineers and professional equipment reviewers ("golden eyes"). We poor saps in the consumer world only can stand in an isle at Best Buy and hope the screen we're looking at is half-ass adjusted right and the content being presented is reasonably complex so we get a sense of the televisions playback limitations!

Someone correct me if I am wrong (in any of the above). Thank you.

You are mostly correct, except that most televisions only have one refresh rate, 60fps. Displaying a 24fps source at 60fps is what generates "judder". What happens is that some frames are displayed twice as long as others, which gives originally fairly smooth pans a horrible juddering motion that drives some people crazy. The opening scene of "Sahara" shows this very well.

[Cyrass4]

Does anyone know if the Samsung 4671 does 5:5 pulldown on 24fps source material with the AMP (motion enhancer) turned off?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Cyrass4

Does anyone know if the Samsung 4671 does 5:5 pulldown on 24fps source material with the AMP (motion enhancer) turned off?

I am waiting for a review of the Samsung 120HZ and Mitsubishi 120HZ displays to see if they do a true 5:5 pull down on 24fps material. I know that the Toshiba remains off the list since it uses 3:2 pulldown with 24 fps material then it converts 60HZ to 120HZ. So far only the Sony brands use true 5:5 pulldown as far as I am aware.

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by mycroft

You are mostly correct, except that most televisions only have one refresh rate, 60fps. Displaying a 24fps source at 60fps is what generates "judder". What happens is that some frames are displayed twice as long as others, which gives originally fairly smooth pans a horrible juddering motion that drives some people crazy. The opening scene of "Sahara" shows this very well.

You mean 50% more, not twice as long. It's called 3:2 pulldown because of the 3:2 pattern (e.g., AAABBCCCDD).

enjoy
gandalf

[mycroft]

Originally Posted by gand41f

You mean 50% more, not twice as long. It's called 3:2 pulldown because of the 3:2 pattern (e.g., AAABBCCCDD).

enjoy
gandalf

Yes, you are correct. Brain fart. Sorry.

[dipal311]

KDL-52W3000 on sony's site says it support 1080p/24?

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by dipal311

KDL-52W3000 on sony's site says it support 1080p/24?

It takes 1080/24p as input but displays it in 60Hz. 60/24 = 2.5, therefore, not an integer multiple.

enjoy
gandalf

[Slapper]

What happened to the OP on this thread? Says he is banned. I found this page to be very informative and I've never seen him say anything negative toward Blu or any of the members here. Hunh.

There's another member here:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...6&postcount=50

He claims his Sharp Aquos is capable of 1080p/24. I told him that it was not even though it may have a 1080p/24 input. Thought I would come over here and ask HDTV1080P to make sure, but I see that he got the smack down.

If anyone knows for 100% sure, follow the link and help him out. I'm 95% sure it does not support 1080p/24, but I have been known to be wrong before. Wouldn't want to stear anyone in the wrong direction.
Thanks.