3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by nhaase

I wonder if mitsubishi will release a LASER-DLP projector after they roll out that tech on RPTVs. That tech should look amazing, digital processing sharpness w/ full blacks!

By the way, that "DreamBee" is not a DLP projector, it's LCoS, which has the colors on the chips.

Thanks for the clarification Nhaase. I have just corrected my posting on the Dream Bee. When I was typing this thing up quickly for some reason I thought this was a 3 chip DLP since the manufactory mentioned no rainbow effect. I now see that they also used the words D-ILA which I should have know right away that this was a LCOS. 3 chip DLP and almost all LCOS since they use 3 chips do not have rainbow problems. Every manufactory wants to use their own fancy name for LCOS. Sony uses the words SXRD for their LCOS displays, JVC and others use the words D-ILA (Digital Direct Drive Image Light Amplifier) for their LCOS displays. This release by Dream Machine is not that big of deal since nearly every company including JVC and Sony make front and rear projectors using three panel LCOS technology. I have heard that Mircodisplay Corporation only uses single LCOS panels for their 1080P displays.

By the way the LASER-DLP projectors should be thin rear projectors and in theory should look excellent.

[nhaase]

Yea, I know when the laser-dlp comes out it will be just RPTV, but I'm hoping they'll do what JVC and Sony did w/ LCoS and later on release a front projector. I've got a few years until I would have a place that would let me utilize a projector, but that will be ideal for me. I've got really keen eyesight, so I'm always looking for the best picture I can find.

[HDTV1080P]

I have just received email from Dream Vision which has nice fast replies to email. I am still waiting on Runco to reply to my email too see if they have any current displays that offer 1080P/24 input, as far as I am aware Runco does not make a 1080P/24 display yet. Not even their $250,000 3 chip DLP has 1080P/24 input.
I am adding the DreamBee $7,800 LCOS front projector to the list. I received an email that this LCOS refreshes 1080P/24 material at 48HZ. I was surprised that it was only 48HZ. Both JVC and Sony LCOS projectors refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ. The higher the refresh rate at multiplies of the original frame the better quality the display is at handling 1080P/24 material.
Here is the email I received from Dream Vision. List has been updated
“Dear Sir,

The DreamBee projector would accept 1080p24 input format at its HDMI inputs 1 and 2. The original frame rate of this format is doubled for video processing, that means that the video information is output at 48 Hz.

Best regards.
--
Vladimir Wang-Wah

Dreamvision - T.E.C. SA
7, Rue La Caille
75017 Paris
Tel: +33 (0) 1 42 29 44 44
fax: +33 (0) 1 42 29 09 10
Mail: vwang@dreamvision.net”

Original email
Hello,

I just had a quick question about your Dream Bee projector. When feeding a 1080P/24 signal input to the projector what refresh rate does the projector display the 1080P/24 material?

Thanks for your time.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

I should have put this information on here a long time ago, so here goes...

XBR2, XBR3 Flat Panel LCDs and the KDRS70XBR2 WILL accept a 1080p/24 signal. I know that for a fact because I tried it with the Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 Blu-ray player on "Source" back in December. It played beautifully. I don't know about the KDRS60XBR2, but I would assume so. I should have noticed this thread before now. Sorry.

Edit: This was done at Hi-Fi Buys.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

I should have put this information on here a long time ago, so here goes...

XBR2, XBR3 Flat Panel LCDs and the KDRS70XBR2 WILL accept a 1080p/24 signal. I know that for a fact because I tried it with the Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 Blu-ray player on "Source" back in December. It played beautifully. I don't know about the KDRS60XBR2, but I would assume so. I should have noticed this thread before now. Sorry.

Edit: This was done at Hi-Fi Buys.

Currently the only Sony on the market that accepts a 1080P/24 input and refreshes at multiplies of the original 24 frames is the VPL-VW50 front projector. The KDF-50E3000, KDF-46E3000, and KDL-70XBR when these displays are released are suppose to have these features also.
The sets you mentioned all the reviews and instruction manuals I have read list the displays as 60HZ with no refreshing capabilities at 48, 72, 96, or 120HZ. On page 14 of the Pioneer manual it says “Even when 24p Direct Out is set to On, if a TV is not compatible with 1080/24p video is connected, the actual frame frequency of the video output will be 60 hz.”

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_11221/394722575BDPHD1OperatingInstructions1228.pdf

The most accurate way to determine if the display can handle 1080P/24 input material is to bring up the information screen on the brand of display to see what type of signal is being received. If the display says it is receiving 60HZ from the Pioneer Blu-ray when in auto or source direct mode then the display is only 60HZ. Now if the display says it is receiving 24HZ then the display has a 1080P/24 input. Some cheaper displays will convert 1080P/24 to 60HZ while better quality displays will convert 1080P/24 material to either 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ, or 120HZ.

[stevei]

I don't see why this is such a big issue, a TV should be able to re-form the original 1080/24p image from a 1080/60i input because there is zero loss of information when the player takes the 1080/24p source and converts to 1080/60i to send to the TV.

As far as I can tell, my TV, which is an 18 month old Samsung LE32R41BDX, does this reconstruction correctly. Here is how I tested it - I paused playback in a Casino Royale scene with panning motion, then stepped through with the time display showing on the screen. I verified that each frame displayed is progressive, and that there were 24 frames displayed in 1 second. There were no duplicate frames displayed and no interlacing artifacts. This is playing it on a PS3 set to output at 1080i.

This explains it well:
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoff...061080iv1080p/

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by stevei

I don't see why this is such a big issue, a TV should be able to re-form the original 1080/24p image from a 1080/60i input because there is zero loss of information when the player takes the 1080/24p source and converts to 1080/60i to send to the TV.

As far as I can tell, my TV, which is an 18 month old Samsung LE32R41BDX, does this reconstruction correctly. Here is how I tested it - I paused playback in a Casino Royale scene with panning motion, then stepped through with the time display showing on the screen. I verified that each frame displayed is progressive, and that there were 24 frames displayed in 1 second. There were no duplicate frames displayed and no interlacing artifacts. This is playing it on a PS3 set to output at 1080i.

This explains it well:
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoff...061080iv1080p/

If the source is 1080I and one owns a 1080P display the display will de-interlace the signal to 1080P. As long as the 1080P display de-interlaces 1080I correctly there will be no major issues. Now there have been many displays that have de-interlace problems and the displays toss out half the resolution. In that case having a set with a 1080P input would be better quality and ideal in order to bypass de-interlacing of 1080I. The PS3 has native 1080P/60 output which is ideal for games and a 1080P display with 1080P/60 input is the best option for PS3 owners that play lots of games.
Now when watching Blu-ray movies if a display is 60HZ only a 1080P/24 input does no good unless the 3:2 pull down circuitry is better quality in the display compared to the Blu-ray player. Now if the display refreshes 1080P/24 material at 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ, 120HZ, and other multitudes of the original frame judder and improved image quality is noticeable.

All the displays listed on the master list are true 1080P/24 displays that refresh at multiplies of the original frame. A quote from the web link you posted supports what I am saying.

“The only time you would see a difference is if you have native 1080p/60 content, which at this point would only come from a PC and maybe the PS3.” “1080p/60 does have more information than 1080i/30, but unless you're a gamer you will probably never see native 1080p/60 content.
“The next Blu-ray players (from Pioneer and the like) will have an additional option. They will be able to output the 1080p/24 from the disc directly. At first you may think that if your TV doesn't accept 1080p, you'll miss out on being able to see the "unmolested" 1080p/24 from the disc. Well even if your TV could accept the 1080p/24, your TV would still have to add the 3:2 pulldown itself (the TV is still 60Hz). So you're not seeing the 1080p/24 regardless. The only exception to that rule is if you can change the refresh on the TV. Pioneer's plasmas can be set to refresh at 72 Hz. These will take the 1080p/24, and do a simple 3:3 pull down (repeating each frame 3 times).”

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by stevei

I don't see why this is such a big issue, a TV should be able to re-form the original 1080/24p image from a 1080/60i input because there is zero loss of information when the player takes the 1080/24p source and converts to 1080/60i to send to the TV.

As far as I can tell, my TV, which is an 18 month old Samsung LE32R41BDX, does this reconstruction correctly. Here is how I tested it - I paused playback in a Casino Royale scene with panning motion, then stepped through with the time display showing on the screen. I verified that each frame displayed is progressive, and that there were 24 frames displayed in 1 second. There were no duplicate frames displayed and no interlacing artifacts. This is playing it on a PS3 set to output at 1080i.

I think you're a little confused with what happens from 24fps ->60p and with the pause function.

If your player has a 1080i 60Hz output, the original 24 fps cadence is given a 3:2 60 Hz interlaced cadence and the display has to deinterlace that resulting in a 3:2 frames repeated 60fps progressie sequence . Of the 24 frames in a second, the 12 odd ones (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23) are repeated 3 times (3 x 12 = 36) and the 12 even ones (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24) are repeate 2 times (2 x 12 = 24) (or viceversa) to get 60 frames per second (36 + 24 = 60). If the player itself outputs 1080p 60Hz, the player does the repeated frames instead. Using pause and still step functions gives you 24 frames because the player shows you 1 frame every time you press the button and of course the counter advances 1 second after 24 frames have gone by.


So yes you are geting the complete 24 frames reconstructed, but on a 60Hz display they're not being played at the 24 frames per second smoothness of each frame lasting on screen the same amount of time. Instead they go: start stop start stop forever (or 3/2/3/2/3/2 in relative duration).

A 24p output player into a 24p input and capable display eliminates this "irregularity" in motion/frame rate and that's their advantage: you get the 24 fps at 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 (smooth) repeats for one second for 48Hz displays or 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3 for one second for 72Hz displays, 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 for one second for 96Hz displays, and 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 for one second for 120Hz displays, instead of 2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3 (start/stop/start/stop etc) for one second for 60Hz displays.

[stevei]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

I think you're a little confused with what happens from 24fps ->60p and with the pause function........Using pause and still step functions gives you 24 frames because the player shows you 1 frame every time you press the button and of course the counter advances 1 second after 24 frames have gone by.

Yes, you're right, I realised afterwards that this must be being driven by the player not the tv.

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

If your player has a 1080i 60Hz output, the original 24 fps cadence is given a 3:2 60 Hz interlaced cadence and the display has to deinterlace that resulting in a 3:2 frames repeated 60fps progressie sequence . Of the 24 frames in a second, the 12 odd ones (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23) are repeated 3 times (3 x 12 = 36) and the 12 even ones (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24) are repeate 2 times (2 x 12 = 24) (or viceversa) to get 60 frames per second (36 + 24 = 60). If the player itself outputs 1080p 60Hz, the player does the repeated frames instead.

Yes, I agree this is what happens, however the tv COULD simply discard one of each group of the frames repeated 3 times to display at 48Hz, or alternatively duplicate one of each group of frames repeated twice to display at 72Hz. However, given that we can't use the pause/step functions to test the tv, it's hard to be certain what the tv is doing. E.g. if I watch the first minute of chapter 4 of Casino Royale, where there is plenty of steady horizontal movement, it doesn't look juddery.

However I do now think that my tv can't be doing what I thought from the pause test, because it doesn't support 48Hz or 72Hz over VGA, so is unlikely to be able to display at those frequencies at all. It must be doing something to smooth out the motion because it looks a lot less juddery than my old CRT tv did when playing R1 DVDs. I do want to buy a 1080p TV at some point, as this TV just isn't big enough to show all the detail of Blu-ray and is only 1366x768, so I guess I may as well wait for one I like that supports 24p, and then it should all look even better.

[liljackiepaper]

I've been looking at Runco's 65" Plasma and Sony's 70" LCD. Please forgive me for being so clueless but why did Runco get knocked off this list? Also, is it possible to get the Runco set for less than 20K? If so, where?

[HDTV1080P]

I have removed the Runco XP-65DHD 65” Plasma from the list since the owners Manuel makes no reference to 1080P/24. Some times electronic newsletters one receives on new models can have inaccurate information. I have emailed RUNCO to see if any of their displays currently have 1080P/24 support since none of their displays even the $250,000 3 chip DLP mentions that feature in the online manual. If I find out that RUNCO currently makes some displays that have 1080P/24 support and refresh at multiplies of the original frame I will update the list with the models.
Runco brand is one of the best quality high-end manufactories and generally can only be found at professional Video retail stores around the suggested retail list price.

P.S.

The Sony 70 inch LCD for around $33,000 is suppose to ship in May. You might want to wait for a professional review on this monitor before purchasing it. Features can be added or removed before a product is released. Hopefully this item will stay on the list. Getting accurate information is very difficult sometimes.

[HDViewer]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

I think you're a little confused with what happens from 24fps ->60p and with the pause function.

If your player has a 1080i 60Hz output, the original 24 fps cadence is given a 3:2 60 Hz interlaced cadence and the display has to deinterlace that resulting in a 3:2 frames repeated 60fps progressie sequence . Of the 24 frames in a second, the 12 odd ones (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23) are repeated 3 times (3 x 12 = 36) and the 12 even ones (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24) are repeate 2 times (2 x 12 = 24) (or viceversa) to get 60 frames per second (36 + 24 = 60). If the player itself outputs 1080p 60Hz, the player does the repeated frames instead. Using pause and still step functions gives you 24 frames because the player shows you 1 frame every time you press the button and of course the counter advances 1 second after 24 frames have gone by.


So yes you are geting the complete 24 frames reconstructed, but on a 60Hz display they're not being played at the 24 frames per second smoothness of each frame lasting on screen the same amount of time. Instead they go: start stop start stop forever (or 3/2/3/2/3/2 in relative duration).

A 24p output player into a 24p input and capable display eliminates this "irregularity" in motion/frame rate and that's their advantage: you get the 24 fps at 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 (smooth) repeats for one second for 48Hz displays or 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3 for one second for 72Hz displays, 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 for one second for 96Hz displays, and 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 for one second for 120Hz displays, instead of 2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2/3 (start/stop/start/stop etc) for one second for 60Hz displays.

Great example! This info is invaluable. Thanks!

[HDTV1080P]

The master list has been updated. The Pioneer Elite BDP-94HD is being released in May 2007 with a list price of only $1000. The BDP-HD1 that sold for $1500 is no longer in production. I will keep the BDP-HD1 on the list until inventories are depleted.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/press/release/detail/0,,2076_310069589_441157928,00.html

QUOTE from twice:
“The $1,000-suggested BDP-94HD Blu-ray player ships in May bundled with two Blu-ray Disc titles that would be among the first with Dolby TrueHD soundtracks. Initial Blu-ray Discs mainly featured Dolby and DTS 5.1 soundtracks, but multichannel PCM was included on some, the company has said.
The BDP-94HD features losslessly compressed Dolby Digital TrueHD decoding, and losslessly compressed DTS-HD Master Audio and lossy DTS-HD High Resolution Audio decoding might be available later as an upgrade loaded via disc, a spokeswoman said. That would enable the player to decode all Blu-ray and HD DVD mandatory and optional surround sound formats.
Dolby True HD and DTS-HD Master, however, can’t be transported in native form over the player’s HDMI 1.2 output, but the player transcodes surround formats to PCM for transport over HDMI 1.2.”
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6441105.html
Also Pioneer in September is going to release 4 1080P Plasma screens between 50-60 inches and with a retail price between $5,000-$7,500. For more details click on the following link. All four models have been added to the master list. The Elite models are rumored to have at the very minimum a 20:000:1 contrast ratio. The PRO-FHD1 is no longer in production and as soon as inventories are gone from resellers I will remove this monitor from the list.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/press/release/detail/0,,2076_310069589_441157918,00.html
** From my sources the new Pioneer Elite BLU-RAY player coming this month and the 4 1080P Plasma’s will all have a 1080P/24 input. The refresh rates should be 72HZ or higher. I am waiting on verification on the refresh rates. If for some reason the information is not accurate I will remove items from the list. **

[HDTV1080P]

The list has been updated. The Nuvision 52LEDLP has been added to the list. There is a review for this rear projector in the June/July Perfect Vision magazine starting on page 38. According to the Perfect Vision magazine review this 52 inch rear projector refreshes 1080P/24 material at 72HZ. This projector uses a 3 LED light engine with no color wheel and no rainbow effects. There is a LED for Red, Green, and Blue so rainbow problems are not an issue. Since there is no color wheel mechanical breakdowns and noise are not an issue. Another cool feature of this LED rear projector is there are no lamps to replace. The light source will last the life of the set which is rated at 50,000 hours. The one disappointment is the sets contrast ratio is only 5,000:1. Suggested retail price for the rear projector is $4,299.
http://nuvision.com/downloads/52LEDLP_SPEC.pdf

http://nuvision.com/ledptv/

[Blackraven]

I guess it's time to put the upcoming Pioneer 8th gen plasma TV sets (WXGA and Full HD 1080 models) onto the list.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Blackraven

I guess it's time to put the upcoming Pioneer 8th gen plasma TV sets (WXGA and Full HD 1080 models) onto the list.

I added the 1080P models within a day or so of the press release.

[HDTV1080P]

For those that subscribe to Home Theater magazine there is a good article comparing the JVC, Sony, and MIT front projectors. Check out the June 2007 issue of Home Theater magazine for a review on the JVC DLA-HD1, Sony VPL-VW50, and Mitsubishi HC 5000. The Sony has a fan that is less noisy compared to the JVC and for $5000 the Sony is a good value. If money is no object the JVC for $6300 has a better picture quality compared to the Sony. The JVC DLA-HD1 refreshes 1080P/24 material at 96HZ like the Sony VPL-VW50. Geoffrey Morrison from Home Theater magazine is also reporting that according to JVC the DLA-HD1 refreshes 60HZ material at 120HZ. That is a nice bonus when watching standard 480I/60 DVD’s or standard HDTV cable or satellite programming that is 60HZ. The JVC DLA-HD1 has an awesome full on/off contrast ratio of 15,560:1 without the use of an iris.
I have made some updates to the list. Products that are not released yet are now noted with the scheduled release dates. This will make it easier for people to see what is available currently and what is coming soon. The Pioneer BDP-94HD is scheduled to be released this month so it is listed as a current product.

[HDTV1080P]

Since the PS3 was launched on November 17th 2006 it has been able to output 1080P/60. A 1080P/60 output is ideal for games that were developed in 1080P/60. When it comes to movies the PS3 would always convert 1080P/24 movies to 1080P/60. Since the PS3 was missing the 1080P/24 output the PS3 has always been a good value BLU-RAY movie player but not a high end machine since it lacked 1080P/24 output that could only be found on high end BLU-RAY players. For several months I have heard rumors of a firmware update coming to the PS3 that would allow it to output native 1080P/24 video. After several months have gone by I started considering these rumors to be false and only rumors. Wow, good thing I was wrong, Sony just came out with a firmware update that turns the PS3 into a 1080P/24 high-end BLU-RAY player that also up converts standard DVD’s and old playstation games to 1080P.
Looks like I and other people are going to purchase the PS3 now. The PS3 is now the cheapest BLU-RAY player that has 1080P/24 output. $599 is a bargain. Even if one is not interested in video games the PS3 is the world’s best BLU-RAY player when it comes to value and quality. Sony was smart to place HDMI 1.3 and a graphics chip that had the capability to do 1080P/24 one day. The PS3 is truly a future proof machine. Sony designed the PS3 hardware so that it can be easily upgraded with a firmware update. Back in Nov 2006 there was advanced hardware placed in the PS3 that could not be used to its full potential until software is ready. It always takes longer to make software then it does to make hardware. I am still in shock that Sony was smart enough to place compatible graphics circuitry on a chip that could be updated to 1080P/24 with software. The PS3 is the only player that has been able to be upgraded to 1080P/24 output. So far no other product on the market has been able to have a software update that allows this feature. I wonder what other surprises Sony has in store with future firmware.

Press release
http://www.us.playstation.com/News/PressReleases/400


The list has been updated with the following info
Sony Playstation 3 (all models of PS3's have 1080P/24 when Firmware 1.80 or higher is used)

[bluray51]

Sony has upcoming LCDs that has 24p True Cinema feature to support 1080p at 24 fps.

24p True Cinema (24p Input Capability)
Many movies are fi lmed at 24 frames per second (fps) and prime time TV programs are video taped at 24p. Seizing on an opportunity, some studios are taking a purist approach and encoding high defi nition video content such as Blu-ray Disc™ in 24p. Sony's BDP-S1 wisely takes advantage of this by including 24p output capability on this model. It makes sense that select 2007 BRAVIA TVs will include 24p input capability. The benefi t? Images are smooth and natural looking. Once you experience 24p video it will be hard to view video without it. (Found on select Sony® BRAVIA televisions.)

KDL-xxV3000 and KDL-xxW3000 due July
KDL-xxXBR4 due August

[HDTV1080P]

Thanks for the info bluray 51. The new Sony’s have been added to the list and hopefully they will stay on the list. Some of the new Sony LCD have a 18,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio. I hope that when Sony says “24p True Cinema” that they mean it refreshes at multiplies of the original frame and not converted to 60HZ. I have marked the Sony’s in red since the refresh rates have not been verified. I am guessing “24p True Cinema” means it will refresh at multiplies of the original frame and hopefully does not mean that it is just a standard 1080P/24 input.