3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[HDTV1080P]

I added the Sony HES-V1000 200 disc BLU-RAY Home Entertainment Server to the list. The reason this server was not added before is because when I heard the name server I was thinking of a computer. Computer’s are not included on the list since the computer hardware graphics card and display are what determines if the output will be 1080P/60 or 1080P/24 and not the BLU-RAY optical drive. All BLU-RAY computer drives every made will do 1080P/24 as soon as someone makes a 1080P/24 compatible computer monitor, hardware graphics card, and software that supports 1080P/24. Sony has placed this neat 200 disc BLU-RAY player under the category of “Blu-ray Disc Players” on their website with all their other standalone players. So it is being included on the master list now.
The 200 disc BLU-RAY changer being built into the home entertainment sever makes the product neat and is priced at $3,499.99. Personally if one is single without a family and they have one main home theater room I would rather go with the Marantz or Denon BLU-RAY player for around $2,000 and save $1500. Then again it would be neat to have a 200 disc BLU-RAY changer to keep your 200 favorite movies ready to demo on a Front Projector at a push of a button.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langI d=-1&productId=8198552921665231960

[Footloose301]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

I added the Sony HES-V1000 200 disc BLU-RAY Home Entertainment Server to the list. The reason this server was not added before is because when I heard the name server I was thinking of a computer. Computer’s are not included on the list since the computer hardware graphics card and display are what determines if the output will be 1080P/60 or 1080P/24 and not the BLU-RAY optical drive. All BLU-RAY computer drives every made will do 1080P/24 as soon as someone makes a 1080P/24 compatible computer monitor, hardware graphics card, and software that supports 1080P/24. Sony has placed this neat 200 disc BLU-RAY player under the category of “Blu-ray Disc Players” on their website with all their other standalone players. So it is being included on the master list now.
The 200 disc BLU-RAY changer being built into the home entertainment sever makes the product neat and is priced at $3,499.99. Personally if one is single without a family and they have one main home theater room I would rather go with the Marantz or Denon BLU-RAY player for around $2,000 and save $1500. Then again it would be neat to have a 200 disc BLU-RAY changer to keep your 200 favorite movies ready to demo on a Front Projector at a push of a button.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langI d=-1&productId=8198552921665231960

Thats pretty neat. I don't like Sony's websites. Never tells you what you want to know unless you go into the manual which is too much for me. This 200 disc player says it has Dolby Digital and DTS outputs.... doesn't say anything about PCM, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, etc... or even HDMI v1.3

I'm sure it probably does all of that seeing as how its brand new and not even out yet, but they should do a better job showing the specs.

It does however have an ethernet port which is nice because it'll probably be able to get regular firmware updates.

[Electric_Haggis]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Yes the Pioneer Plasma’s are the only ones currently that have Plasma’s that have both a 1080P/24 input and that refresh at multiplies of the original frame. You might find some other brands that have a 1080P/24 input but they have incorrect refresh of 60HZ which is no benefit.
Sometimes it takes TV manufactories time to improve on technology that they created. A few years ago there were many displays that would throw away half the resolution when deinterlacing 1080I to 1080P. Over time most manufactories solved that problem. Then there was the issue a few years ago of 1080P sets that did not have a 1080P/60 input but only a 1080I input. Now most sets that are labeled as 1080P also have a 1080P/60 input. When BLU-RAY and HD-DVD appeared on the market there was a lack of displays that had a 1080P/24 input accept the high end Pioneer brand and some Sony and JVC Front Projectors. Then to solve that problem many manufactories started making 1080P/24 inputs on their displays but since the displays did not refresh 1080P/24 correctly it was more like a marketing buzz word to attract customers to their low cost sets that advertise 1080P/24 input.
Hopefully more manufactories will start introducing true 1080P/24 refresh rates in 2008. I have read in 2008 that possible Panasonic might start placing 1080P/24 inputs on their displays and since Panasonic already makes a good Front Projector that has a correct 1080P/24 refresh rate then most likely the 2008 line of Panasonic Plasma’s might handle 1080P/24 correctly.

Nice post.

I'd heard that the new Hitachi 50" 1080p plasma refreshes at 48Hz with 24p (providing film-motion-smoothing is switched off).

Anyone know?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis

Nice post.

I'd heard that the new Hitachi 50" 1080p plasma refreshes at 48Hz with 24p (providing film-motion-smoothing is switched off).

Anyone know?

I checked out Hitachi’s website and the specs and manuals as far as I can see do not mention 1080P/24 inputs or refresh rates like Pioneer’s website. I will keep a eye out for a professional review on the Hitachi and if it does have a 1080P/24 input and correctly refreshes 1080P/24 material then I will add it to the list.

[HDTV1080P]

The Infocus Play Big IN82 DLP Front Projector has been verified to refresh 1080P/24 material at 48HZ. So it has been added to the list. The IN81 model has a 1080P/24 input but refresh rates have not been verified so it remains off the list.

Data sheet for IN82
http://www.infocus.com/upload/library/datasheet/english/infocus_in82_datasheet_en.pdf

Quote
“According to InFocus, when the IN82 receives a 24fps input it frame doubles to 48fps (Hz). While it produced a good image when fed 1080p/24, it did show significant artifacts in 24fps mode in the beginning scene of chapter 8 of MI III, as the camera pans down the Vatican staircase. Firmware v2.5, which we did not receive during the review period, is said to reduce image artifacts with 1080p/24 material.
http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/1007infocus/index1.html

[Electric_Haggis]

Sorry if I've missed this earlier in the thread, but can the Optoma HD80 projector definitely refresh at a multiple of 24?

I've heard conflicting reports. Projectorcentral's review raved about its 24p performance, yet some others say it needs a firmware update to refresh accurately?

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

The following Sony rear projectors and LCD’s have been added to the list

LCD
KDL-52XBR5
KDL-46XBR5
KDL-40XBR5
KDL-52XBR4
KDL-46XBR4
KDL-40XBR4



“If the source does not contain 3/2 pulldown, such as a 1080p/60 video-originated source or a 1080p/24 film-based source from a Blu-ray or HD DVD player, Motionflow adds either one interpolated frame (1080p/60) or four interpolated frames (1080p/24) to each source frame to reach the 120Hz refresh rate required by the set's 120Hz operation. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame is simply repeated as many times as needed to get to 120Hz, with no interpolation.”

Thanks for the great info! By the way, I'm seeing conflicting information regarding the Sony XBR4 LCDs. In the following link, Gary Merson flatly states that this TV does not skip the intermediate 60Hz step:

http://hdguru.com/?p=131

None of the 120 HZ TV convert directly to 120Hz. I know because I have asked all the 120 HZ LCD vendors.

(You can see me asking questions on that page. )

Do you have any other sources that claim 5:5 pulldown for XBR4? Sorry for being such an ass but I'm seriously considering this TV and the fact that Sony's own literature doesn't claim 5:5 pulldown in an unambiguous way makes me worried.

thanks
gandalf

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis

Sorry if I've missed this earlier in the thread, but can the Optoma HD80 projector definitely refresh at a multiple of 24?

I've heard conflicting reports. Projectorcentral's review raved about its 24p performance, yet some others say it needs a firmware update to refresh accurately?

As far as I am aware there is no firmware update for the HD80. I think projector centeral might have received a pre-production sample when they reviewed the HD80. According to both Perfect Vision and Sound and Vision magazine the HD80 is only 60HZ.
Here is weblinks to the reviews on the HD80 that clearly mentions it only refreshes at 60HZ.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=226674&postcount=191

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by gand41f

Thanks for the great info! By the way, I'm seeing conflicting information regarding the Sony XBR4 LCDs. In the following link, Gary Merson flatly states that this TV does not skip the intermediate 60Hz step:

http://hdguru.com/?p=131


(You can see me asking questions on that page. )

Do you have any other sources that claim 5:5 pulldown for XBR4? Sorry for being such an ass but I'm seriously considering this TV and the fact that Sony's own literature doesn't claim 5:5 pulldown in an unambiguous way makes me worried.

thanks
gandalf

Perhaps the reviewer did not try turning off the motion enhancer which to my understanding is suppose to allow the Sony to do a proper do a 5:5 pulldown without using interpolation. It’s good your worried. Sometimes reviewers make mistakes. I hope the Sony’s stay on the list since I get tired of displays popping on and off the list. It also bothers me that the Sony website no where mentions 5:5 pulldown.
I wish more websites were like Pioneer and listed specs that clearly say what their display’s do. Pioneer clearly for all of their Plasma’s uses the buzz words 3:3 pulldown for all of their 1080P and 720P plasma’s.

[HDTV1080P]

** Warning: it is recommended you do your own research since specs can change and professional reviewers can make mistakes or receive pre-production models that have different specs from the official release version. From time to time as more information is learned about a display it can end up being removed or added to the list. **

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Perhaps the reviewer did not try turning off the motion enhancer which to my understanding is suppose to allow the Sony to do a proper do a 5:5 pulldown without using interpolation. It’s good your worried. Sometimes reviewers make mistakes. I hope the Sony’s stay on the list since I get tired of displays popping on and off the list. It also bothers me that the Sony website no where mentions 5:5 pulldown.
I wish more websites were like Pioneer and listed specs that clearly say what their display’s do. Pioneer clearly for all of their Plasma’s uses the buzz words 3:3 pulldown for all of their 1080P and 720P plasma’s.

I know the reviewer hasn't actually tested 24p, he said so himself. It's the comment "I know because I have asked all the 120 HZ LCD vendors" that I'm concerned about. It's really quite puzzling if Sony told him they don't do 5:5 pulldown (which is what I assume "None of the 120 HZ TV convert directly to 120Hz" means) if it does.

enjoy
gandalf

[Electric_Haggis]

Thanks for a very useful thread.


How about the BenQ W9000 front projector (1080p)?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis

Thanks for a very useful thread.


How about the BenQ W9000 front projector (1080p)?

It appears the BENQ W9000 refreshes at 60HZ. Like most users manuals the specifications do not go into details.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/projector_manual_3589.pdf

[joevfx]

only sony tvs with "24 true cinema" do playback at 5:5. even though sony doesnt say its straight up they do elude to it by saying " displays 1080/24p content the right way"

and to go even furth with the info that we have about the TV repeating frames instead od interpolating when Motion Enhancer is off, if you turn on theater mode ( which is a TV calibration mode done by the blu ray camp to playback blu ray moives to there fullest) ME is automatically TURNED OFF. im sure this means its teh best way to play back 24p blu ray movies , by repeatign frames.

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by joevfx

only sony tvs with "24 true cinema" do playback at 5:5. even though sony doesnt say its straight up they do elude to it by saying " displays 1080/24p content the right way"

and to go even furth with the info that we have about the TV repeating frames instead od interpolating when Motion Enhancer is off, if you turn on theater mode ( which is a TV calibration mode done by the blu ray camp to playback blu ray moives to there fullest) ME is automatically TURNED OFF. im sure this means its teh best way to play back 24p blu ray movies , by repeatign frames.

Yes, I know that the TV repeats frames when Motion Enhancer is off. What I'm not convinced that it does a 5:5 pulldown and not a 6:4 pulldown (24Hz -> 60Hz -> 120Hz) by reusing existing circuitry.

Sorry for being so paranoid but we have seen TV manufacturers do things the roundabout way because they could reuse existing circuitry. My LCD (Sharp D40 model) takes DVI/HDMI and converts them to analog first, before converting the signal back to digital for displaying on the panel. Why would they do something stupid like that? Two answers: cost and time to market.

enjoy
gandalf

[HDTV1080P]

More documented evidence why some Sony displays are on the list and why currently no Toshiba displays are on the list.

According to page 39 of the winter 2008 Perfect Vision magazine the Sony KDL-40XBR4 refreshes 1080P/24 material at 120HZ. According to page 42 of the winter 2008 Perfect Vision magazine the Toshiba 46LX177 also displays 1080P/24 material at 120HZ but the Perfect Vision magazine has made it clear in the specification section on page 42 that the Toshiba uses a 3:2 pulldown process in which 1080P/24 material is converted to 60HZ first before being converted to 120HZ. Using a 3:2 pulldown process with 1080P/24 has no benefit when it comes to reducing judder,etc. Since Toshiba has chosen to use the 3:2 pulldown process instead of a 5:5 pulldown process this is why the Toshiba displays are not included on the list along with many other companies that have choosen to not use multiplies of the original frame when displaying 1080P/24 material. No displays that use 3:2 pulldown when a 1080P/24 signal is applied are included on the list.

[HDTV1080P]

Update on the HD-A20 and HD-XA2 firmware 2.5 and motion studder issues

The Toshiba HD-A20 and HD-XA2 when playing discs recorded at a resolution different then 1080P/24 will not automatically change to 60 or 30 fps. In order to avoid frame losses, motion problems, and possible other video and audio issues one needs to research how the disc was recorded before playing it. Hopefully a firmware update will correct this issue so that consumers do not need to manually switch between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60. BLU-RAY players will automatically natively switch between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60 when playing a rare disc that is not recorded at 24fps. Maybe a future firmware update to the Toshiba players will correct these issues.

Positive quote on the new firmware 2.5
“As an added bonus, the HD-A20 will upconvert standard definition DVDs to 1080p/24, with all the motion benefits that come from eliminating the 3/2 pulldown present in film-based material at 1080p/60 and 1080i/30. The smoothing was particularly noticeable in the opening scenes of Star Trek: Insurrection, as the camera pans across the haystacks and the village. To date, no Blu-ray players that we know of will do this.”
Negative quotes about the HD-A20
“I was able to confirm that the HD-A20 does, in fact, first convert a 1080p/24 film source to 1080i, and then deinterlace that 1080i to 1080p/60 prior to output. Test patterns viewed at 1080i/30 were mostly pristine, but a 1080p/60 output showed clear signs of rudimentary deinterlacing.
Specifically, the 1080i-to-1080p step uses bobbing. Bobbing is a relatively primitive deinterlacing technique that takes the two fields of each interlaced image and interpolates extra lines for each field, and then displaying them sequentially rather than weaving them back together. The more sophisticated approach is motive adaptive deinterlacing, in which the processor weaves the two fields together when there's little motion and bobs them together when there's fast motion.
But this isn't the place for an extensive review of deinterlacing techniques. The point here is that there would not be any evidence of deinterlacing at all if the player simply converted a 1080p/24 directly to 1080p/60. “
How to avoid motion studder when selecting 1080P/24 output
“But for some—generally those mastered in another HD resolution and/or frame rate—you will need to go into the setup menu and switch the output to 1080i/30 or 1080p/60 to avoid severe motion stuttering. Concert videos may be particularly susceptible to this. But there aren't enough of them on HD DVD as yet to say for certain if 1080i/30 will turn out to be the preferred mastering mode for this type of programming. “
http://ultimateavmag.com/hddiscplayers/1007toshup/index1.html

[Electric_Haggis]

Positive quote on the new firmware 2.5
“As an added bonus, the HD-A20 will upconvert standard definition DVDs to 1080p/24, with all the motion benefits that come from eliminating the 3/2 pulldown present in film-based material at 1080p/60 and 1080i/30. The smoothing was particularly noticeable in the opening scenes of Star Trek: Insurrection, as the camera pans across the haystacks and the village. To date, no Blu-ray players that we know of will do this.”


Brilliant!!!
I've been wondering how long it'd be before an upscaling player did 24p with regular DVD.

[HDTV1080P]

The HDTV players list has been moved to a new link due to space limitation

There is a limitation to the amount of text that can be placed in a posting. So I have to separate the true 1080P/24 displays and the 1080P/24 HDTV players into two separate lists. The list of HDTV players can be found on the following link.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=20323

Since all new BLU-RAY, HD-DVD, and Combo players in the future coming to market will support 1080P/24 the list of HDTV players is not as important as it use to be. Finding a true 1080P/24 display with correct refresh rate is still a important issue with many companies still making 1080P displays that only refresh at 60HZ or use 3:2 pulldown when refreshing 120HZ.

[HDTV1080P]

7 new Front Projectors added to the list and a update on two Sony models in regard to refresh rates.

The following information came from the November 2007 Widescreen review issue. On pages 14-21 they have a very detailed article about new equipment that was presented at the 2007 CEDIA Expo.

JVC DLA-HD100 (48HZ) 40,000:1 static contrast ratio at device and 30,000:1 on the screen.
Mitsubishi HC6000 (48HZ)
Epson Powerlite Pro Cinema 1080UB (48HZ)
Sim2’s C3X 1080 (48HZ)
IVision 30-1080p.(48HZ)
Samsung SP-A800B (48HZ)
PANASONIC PT-AE2000U (96HZ)

According to page 14 of Widescreen review the Sony VPL-VW60 and VPL-VW200 refresh 1080P/24 material at 48HZ. Which is still multiplies of the original frame. I wonder if the 48HZ refresh rate is an error. The VPL-VW50 does a 96HZ refresh rate and most likely when a professional review of the VPL-VW60 and VPL-VW200 projectors come out I am guessing that the real refresh rate will be either 96HZ or 120HZ for 1080P/24 material. Since Widescreen Review is reporting that these projectors refresh at 48HZ with 1080P/24 material then until further information is received they will remain on the list at 48HZ which I believe might be wrong info.

** UPDATE: Some of this information has changed and the above information is not correct, product specs change before a product is released **